djchump wrote:

Really, the only thing I don't agree with you about is:

One year later, it's a different game to what it was at release. That, to me, is a good thing, not bad. We used to slate devs for releasing there games and just forgetting them, never patching problems and bugs, so you put that game on a year later and it's the exact same.

I'd agree with that if they'd done it via free updates, but they didn't, they were paid - so it's not like "they fixed the issues", they sold the fixes, and that's a rather different beast and not one that I will laud.

There were paid updates/expansions that were part of the whole Destiny business model and plan years before release, so it's not like we didn't know they were coming. Also, the big patches and fixes are released separately from the expansions, and were free to everybody that owned the game. Worth noting that.

The point is, they didn't have to pretty much reinvent their game to placate the community, they could've done what many other devs do and left the game as is, and bolted on the expansions and used the existing systems. The expansions still would have sold, because the core gameplay is so good.

They didn't, they listened to the community, and made their game better. Much better in fact. 

That can only be a good thing in my eyes. The fact that a vast majority of people have not felt the need to play much else in the last year is testament to the value for money people are getting even with the cost of all the expansions.

Yes that's correct. The big changes happened just before TTK hit, but the game has been constantly improved since release.

It certainly wasn't broken before that either. I mean, there were issues, but nothing major. Maybe too much grind and some odd issues with upgrading and stuff that could only really be ironed out once the game is in the wild. Like any MMO, there are teething problems.

djchump wrote:

stonechalice wrote:

djchump wrote:

Chalice - have you played Wow, or any other MMO before?

Yes. I've played WoW. For me, it was hard to get into. As I say, I'm not a PC gamer really, but I have a PC, and it could run WoW, but not at optimum and that put me off straight away. Also, I wasn't mad keen on the whole fantasy, cutesy aesthetic of the game, and the gameplay itself was rather clunky and average, it felt a little shallow, and I didn't have a headset, or anyone I knew to play with. I understand where Destiny's roots are, but I refer you to my post above as to why, for consoles, Destiny is a big deal.

Cool.

I mean, for sure, I agree with pretty much everything you wrote in your long post - that Destiny is: revolutionary for consoles, revolutionary for you personally, Yoss finds it revolutionary for FPSes etc etc. - but my only point is, these are all "revolutionary when qualified to a smaller scope"; "revolutionary" but only in some aspect or successful synthesis.

Pretty much everything's revolutionary within a smaller scope, Citizen Kane was revolutionary for films but did fuck all for the novel. Similarly, everything that's revolutionary has influences that can be pointed out to say it's not. This is where the whole subjectivity argument comes into play.

Yossarian wrote:

Pretty much everything's revolutionary within a smaller scope, Citizen Kane was revolutionary for films but did fuck all for the novel. Similarly, everything that's revolutionary has influences that can be pointed out to say it's not. This is where the whole subjectivity argument comes into play.

Well, yes, and it boils down to what is the topic for the thread - games that were "revolutionary games" (i.e. revolutionary across all the whole videogame medium), or a discussion of any revolutionary aspects of games - which can then break down into topics such as "which game first invented the recharging health/shield mechanic" etc.

/shrug

I thought it was the former, but if people want to chat about the latter that's cool, makes no bones to me.

My issue with Chalice's stance on Destiny is it's basically like someone has taken a photo of the Mona Lisa and the photographer is then being quoted as being amazing because of how detailed the brush-strokes on the painting are, but Da Vinci is ignored because the person prefers photographs to paintings.

An incredibly tortured and somewhat hyperbolic analogy to be sure, but Bungie have haphazardly translated a lot of the vast groundwork laid by a decade of MMOs before it, and it's taken them a year to do a robust Seasonal Event, the likes of which have been in MMOs and games like TF2 for years and years. A lot of this is probably down to development blues, and I really enjoy the game and where it is right now (the preceding year sounds like egregious BS though, and playing it at my Dad's during the Dark Below expansion really put me off it) but as fun as the Raids are, they're just first person MMO raid mechanics, that are fairly limited due to a class system that doesn't really have a vast amount of systemic input into the game. 

It would be better for me if they leaned a little heavier on the MMO influence, and made the classes far more specific, or at least allow the perks to reinforce the roles they are vaguely representing (Titan = Tank, Warlock = DPS, Hunter = Burst/Rogue) which would allow for deeper, more strategic mechanics in the raids as opposed to:

"Someone grab the buff! 
Who? 
Any of the 5 of you that isn't me, it really doesn't matter."

Though I can see the issues with this: it's harder to gauge the arrangement of players around you when you're in a First Person View, so maybe the deeper movement and tanking/aggro of a WoW raid would be an ill fit. Conversely, the platforming is frequently great, and it'd be nice to have bigger bosses and foes that involved more movement and aggro based mechanics than largely buff based stuff. 

It has its moments, of course, and the ease of access to groups, friends, inventory and so forth is brilliant (and a definite hangover from PC MMOs) but t be aping a decade old formula and still be really struggling to break new ground is a bit of a shame. Again, a lot of that is likely due to development issues, and the amount of polish Bungie seem to want to apply to every little facet of the game, but I'd rather a slightly rougher looking experience if other things were fixed: use for orbs in SP, the wonky endgame, the lack of useful things to do with a vast majority of the year 1 content, etc etc etc

Also jeez, gives us better class specific stories. That's something most MMOs do quite well, WoW especially.

Edit: I fully expect to get a Yoss/Chalice "Yes, but on consoles" rebuttal which I'll pre-empt by saying - I have never played a PC MMO myself, but I've seen enough of them second hand, and heard enough of them to know that Destiny has missed some tricks that could have done as little as smoothed the first year out so much more, but I'll leave the exactitudes to others.

MMOs aren't usually turn based, they almost all follow the WoW path: You have tons of abilities with various cooldowns, that you can chain to min/max, reinforced by the stats on your armour, and your class specific buffs etc. Basically exactly the same as Destniy, but with lots more to consider/far more interesting combos and play styles available.

I'm not even bother to engage with the "revolutionary" thing, because it seems pointless. It's an FPS with light MMO trappings. If that makes it your favourite game ever, that's great.

Probably, y'all feel the need to point out every mistake I make with a question or something? Like the third time you've done it in a few days.  It's a bit tedious.

Yossarian wrote:

Fine, turn based, simultaneous cooldowns, whatever, I still find the process of actually having a fight in an RPG tedious.

Which is fair enough.

Yossarian wrote:

No. Do they involve first person shooting?

You said:  'I've never played anything like Destiny Raids before'

Trust me, WoW raids are like Destiny raids. The mechanic to cause damage to enemies is different.

'Anything like' is a strong statement.

Tempy wrote:

Tempy wrote:

Probably, y'all feel the need to point out every mistake I make with a question or something? Like the third time you've done it in a few days.  It's a bit tedious.

TBH Temps, this is probably just a cantankerous perception because you're fucked off with the idiots in Court of Oryx today.

You're right, it is. Apologies. As you were Dante.

no u

It's true, Yoss hadn't played WoW or any other game that had raids 10 years before Destiny did, so, for Yoss, it was a brand new revolutionary experience. For anyone else who had experienced raids before, not so much.

djchump wrote:

It's true, Yoss hadn't played WoW or any other game that had raids 10 years before Destiny did, so, for Yoss, it was a brand new revolutionary experience. For anyone else who had experienced raids before, not so much.

Come on. There's MMO raids, and there are Destiny raids. You haven't played a raid in Destiny Chump.

Yossarian wrote:

Fine, turn based, simultaneous cooldowns, whatever, I still find the process of actually having a fight in an RPG tedious.

This. ^^^

The action of hitting a critical spot with an awesome looking/sounding gun whilst flying through the air, throwing a well placed grenade, awaiting the explosion behind cover, then activating a super to lay waste to the dregs and collecting up the engrams and ammo is a delight I can't seem to tire of.

Compared to the menu based cool down bars and magic and hack and slash of many MMO's, where it looks as if the attacks are not even connecting because your guy is not next to the enemy in question and it all looks like a bit a clusterfuck of numbers and stats?

I know which I'd choose every time.

There is still plenty Destiny could learn from PC MMOs, yeah, even in the Raids.

stonechalice wrote:

djchump wrote:

It's true, Yoss hadn't played WoW or any other game that had raids 10 years before Destiny did, so, for Yoss, it was a brand new revolutionary experience. For anyone else who had experienced raids before, not so much.

Come on. There's MMO raids, and there are Destiny raids. You haven't played a raid in Destiny Chump. ....

Did you raid when you played WoW?