Destiny Is Problematic - Let's Make It Better - The Bear and Badger

regmcfly

Grimoires have to be read in the destiny companion app, Hylian. They are a bit like dark souls lore and are actually pretty cool.

tigersgogrrr

The narrative is poor. I do not care for the narrative of Destiny, which is piecemeal and lacking in most areas.

However, the world's fiction is excellent. Much like with Dark Souls, there are gaps that I fill in myself. There may be more story in there, but I don't particularly care for it. I build my own ideas of the world, ideas born from what little they have given me. I find it thematically and aesthetically appealing. Something more Mass Effect-like would have been great... but I'm not critical of this. I project onto games. For games like Destiny, this helps tremendously.

The core combat of the game is excellent, of course, which is why I keep coming back. Yet I wouldn't be bothering without Badgers to play with. I guess I've always been the same with any online shooter.

For me, Destiny 2 needs more. More of everything. I'm not bothered by the different currencies. I'd like to see the factions made more important - Let them make more of a change to how you play, let there be PvP rivalries, etc.

Great fun on the raid last night. Not sure I've played anything with Elm since... Left 4 Dead? Borderlands? Anyway, it was good fun. I make no apology for my criticisms of Shyam and his lack of heroism.

JRPC

tigerswiftly wrote:

The narrative is poor. I do not care for the narrative of Destiny, which is piecemeal and lacking in most areas.

However, the world's fiction is excellent. Much like with Dark Souls, there are gaps that I fill in myself. There may be more story in there, but I don't particularly care for it. I build my own ideas of the world, ideas born from what little they have given me. I find it thematically and aesthetically appealing. Something more Mass Effect-like would have been great... but I'm not critical of this. I project onto games. For games like Destiny, this helps tremendously.

The core combat of the game is excellent, of course, which is why I keep coming back. Yet I wouldn't be bothering without Badgers to play with. I guess I've always been the same with any online shooter.

For me, Destiny 2 needs more. More of everything. I'm not bothered by the different currencies. I'd like to see the factions made more important - Let them make more of a change to how you play, let there be PvP rivalries, etc.

Great fun on the raid last night. Not sure I've played anything with Elm since... Left 4 Dead? Borderlands? Anyway, it was good fun. I make no apology for my criticisms of Shyam and his lack of heroism.

Yknow right up until near launch time, crucible was actually called 'faction wars'.

Roujin

JRPC wrote:

There'll never be PvP in a pve context in destiny. Goes against the ethos of the game.

And yet it was talked about during the early developer videos.

They mentioned that the random server events were going to include competitive as well as coop objectives. Fireteams fighting over rare equipment was mentioned.

My guess is that originally, when players were given different stories according to race and class, that the inhabitants of the solar system weren't a unified bunch of super best friends, at least at the start of the overall narrative, hence the space queen being a total bitch for no reason in that fucking out of place cutscene.

I'm not sure what Bungie can do to fix Destiny, because I think that the Destiny they planned to make is on the cutting room floor, because of the technical limitations of the hardware both player and server side, the loss of key team members during development and the delays the game ran into.

The game we got feels like Mass Effect 3 or The Old Republic, a good game, but a game that is really something cobbled together from the bits that could be salvaged from whatever disaster befell the development.

As a result of the changes that were made to the story to get a single story for all players into the game, the whole overarching future narrative is probably in the toilet. I think the second dlc represents the last of the story content cut from the original game to be served up later if I recall that supposed employees reddit post correctly. After that? Well, I guess we can look forward to the 'god child' moment for all the wrong reasons in the future when the story has to be wrapped up with a new bit of plot.

I enjoyed my time with Destiny, I only stopped because the first big stability patch had the opposite effect on my connection. Towards the end though, I felt like I was walking around inside a museum, looking at an exhibition of the game, the most interesting bits and pieces the archaeologists dug up from the ruins and tried to put back together how they thought it was originally supposed to be. For that reason, I think the best that the long term players of the game can hope for is that Bungie keep giving them nice looking environments and interesting weapons to play with so that the enjoyment of the amazingly well realised gunplay lasts as long as possible.

Oh and Bill Nighy going through with the obvious baddie reveal twist should be avoided, kthx.

regmcfly

That's a cool idea for 2 - some sort of war? Picking a side, and then that affecting the way you go about the rest of the game, PvP et al.

adored

Paul the sparky wrote:

regmcfly wrote:

This probably isn't the thread for you, Paul.

Is it full of condescension? Because I'm not a fan of that.

That's because you didn't get a first.

JRPC

Probably the most exciting thing about Destiny for me is that it's just getting started.

Despite the inconsistent reviews, it's been a huge success. Bungie are now in a position to build it into the best it can be. A year from now we'll be staring down the last bit of dlc for Destiny 1.

6 raids, 20-odd strikes, new focuses, environments, PvP maps, new enemies, more lore, weapons, armour, tweaks galore and I'd bet a bunch of surprises.

Future's bright folks.

regmcfly

Yeah, I'm with you. I think there is real promise there - and there is a real sense in the posts coming out from the makers of the game that they're listening.

I did like the recent post about the "leak" where the guy basically ended it with "yes, leaks are fun but hold on..."

pantyfire

Destiny 2 could be brilliant.
This one was a mess at release, I've not played it since the Vault of Glass was opened.
I was tempted to get it again second hand the other week to see if it's improved but according to you lot that would entail forking out for DLC to get the improved bits and I'm not prepared to spend the extra money.

For me it's the tragic lack of imagination in the missions that killed it, and it's not even the big stuff it's the little details that go do so much to immerse you in a world like, changing the gravity on each world or muffling the guns sounds on the moon or even spidertanks that can use their spider legs to actually climb over scenery and, OMG!!! Move about (imagine the first time seeing that spidertank doing a, Ghost in the Shell spider jump over your head with missiles spewing out of it). Not revolutionary stuff just stuff I would actually expect from Bungie, given their track record.

When i played it all i saw were missed opportunities and potential which i found frustrating because they've absolutely nailed the shooting bit, it just needed that teensy bit more creative vision or clarity of goal to make this a genre defining seminal game.
I strongly suspect that reddit guy was genuine and the rumoured bust ups and interfering severely curtailed the potential of this game.

I_R

Webbins wrote:

I'm a bit part player, it's the gunplay that sees me dip in when I do. What's missing for me is the lore, the characterisation. When you've created the legacy that is Halo, to follow it up and not introduce a new cast seems strange. Not to say they should have box ticked their previous franchise, but in a game where characters are present, the traders, quartermasters, Vanguards, etc., I feel should have been embellished rather than being the monotonous automatons they are. Where's my BiDo Gallic robot dammit?

I think the lore is there, but it's presented in the cheapest way possible - through the cards. The plot might be there, but it's barely moved forward an inch on what might be a huge journey or a wild goose chase.

The stories about the cut scene at the very start being specifically for the Exo race and the other race sequences being cut makes a lot of sense. I also think that it's Bungie doing the cutting rather than everyone's favourite bogeymen at Activision. Very easy to shell out for cut scenes when MS is footing the bill, when you're paying for them yourself I imagine it's a different proposition.

Billy

Ahhh nice thread, good convo, well done Reg. Although you did appear to call people narrow minded in the other thread, naughty Reg! No Badgers playing Destiny appear narrow minded to me, just sick of going over the same moans and shortfalls again and again over a 500+ page thread and clearly to you who is just wanting to discuss that stuff now, it seems strange. But context bro, I'd say around half of those 500 pages have been heated discussions about this stuff.

I'm still happy to list the things that I'd like to see in Destiny in the future. But before I do, let's just make clear that we don't yet know how persistent the current Destiny universe is going to be over the next 9 years. In other words, we don't know if Destiny 2 will do away with everything we have so far in Destiny 1, our builds, the servers, our k/d, our exotic gear, the servers, the environments, public events etc. The upcoming Comet expansion is rumoured (leaked) to be of the same size as the original boxed release, is this Destiny 2 or just a massive expansion?

If Destiny 2 just adds to what we have then we are severly limited in what we will get, it'll likely be nothing radical. If Destiny 2 isn't Comet then it could chuck away a lot of Destiny 1 stuff and carry over only the essentials, in this case we could see some big changes.

Billy

I'm leaning towards Comet being just a big expansion, so more of the same, with the real Destiny 2 coming in 2016. Here's the leaked image

http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2015/01/03/leaked-destiny-plans-show-massive-comet-expansion-in-fall-2015/

Elmlea

regmcfly wrote:

Here's the question - when destiny 2 drops, they're likely going to go a WoW route, right? Making it so that anyone under, say level 35 by then, can get going and not feel disadvantaged. How do you do that, considering the intricate way the levelling up system post-20 works?

If you're thinking along the lines we were discussing last night; as in pulling non-regular players up to the level they need to be in order to crack on with the DLC; there's 2 approaches.

First, The Dark Below's story missions are around the level of the end of the main story, so if you've done the story, you can join in the DLC. I guess the House of Wolves story will be similar, and will be around level 20.

The raids are the things with the big bar to entry. If they wanted to give people a boost (maybe when House of Wolves is released, they'll want people to at least be able to jump 20-26 and try the Vault of Glass, and work 2 raids behind?), they can do it with loot. At the end of The Dark Below you get a weapon. At the end of The House of Wolves, they could give you 2 pieces of armour that bump you to the min light requirement for level 26.

WorKid

They should ditch the shooting mechanics totally and add small cars. 150 cc type things. Then replace the avatars with more colourful cartoon-like characters. Then add back some sort of weapons system but based on carapaces and vegetation rather than explosives.

regmcfly

Sorry, Billy, and to people in the other thread for saying narrow minded - was just getting frustrated at not feeling able to discuss the problems - but I'm glad you're happy to be part of the conversation here.
Do you have a list of the comet expansion rumours? I seem to remember a picture of a PowerPoint at that was doing the rounds - is that it?

regmcfly

Oh shit - just saw you posted the leak.

regmcfly

Elmlea wrote:

regmcfly wrote:

Here's the question - when destiny 2 drops, they're likely going to go a WoW route, right? Making it so that anyone under, say level 35 by then, can get going and not feel disadvantaged. How do you do that, considering the intricate way the levelling up system post-20 works?

If you're thinking along the lines we were discussing last night; as in pulling non-regular players up to the level they need to be in order to crack on with the DLC; there's 2 approaches.

First, The Dark Below's story missions are around the level of the end of the main story, so if you've done the story, you can join in the DLC. I guess the House of Wolves story will be similar, and will be around level 20.

The raids are the things with the big bar to entry. If they wanted to give people a boost (maybe when House of Wolves is released, they'll want people to at least be able to jump 20-26 and try the Vault of Glass, and work 2 raids behind?), they can do it with loot. At the end of The Dark Below you get a weapon. At the end of The House of Wolves, they could give you 2 pieces of armour that bump you to the min light requirement for level 26.

It's more - what about the people who will buy Destiny big box release but not the dlc - how do they get catered?

Elmlea

regmcfly wrote:

Grimoires have to be read in the destiny companion app, Hylian. They are a bit like dark souls lore and are actually pretty cool.

They are good; and I can't believe they're not fleshed out more, like you say. I'd be perfectly happy with a Mass Effect codex style thing. Or a cut scene when you first encounter something, or even an audio log thing that plays.

I didn't know what motes of light, ascendant shards etc were at all. Like you say, something that just said "look, an asendant shard! That's blah blah blah and you can use it for blah!" would be ideal.

Diluted Dante

In Final Fantasy XI there was a system called Conquest. Destiny could straight up rip this off, because helpfully we have equivalents for all of it.

In Conquest, you fought for your nation. There were 3 of them. We have 3 factions. You only earnt conquest points if you had a status effect called Signet. The equivilent here is equipping the faction class item. Kills with Signet active increased your nations allegiance. Dying decreased it and increased the influence of the beastmen. Swap beastmen for the Darkness.

It ran on a weekly basis, as does Destiny. If your nation was top, you got benefits like certain vendors only being able to sell items from regions you controlled. This could work in Destiny not only with the factions, but with Xur as well.

It would mean that you would have to make switching between factions more difficult than at present, but would add more to the game. It would add reasons to play patrol beyond what currently exists too.

Elmlea

As in people who buy Destiny 2? Or Destiny 1.5, as the comet bit will probably be? Same thing, I guess.

regmcfly

Elmlea wrote:

As in people who buy Destiny 2? Or Destiny 1.5, as the comet bit will probably be? Same thing, I guess.

So I'm probably going to buy the dlc when I jump back in. Let's say I didn't tho. I got to the end of the "story" in the game, as it is. And then I put it away. And then Destiny 2 or whatever the next "can be played alone" title comes along. And I'm sitting at level 20, having done the campaign. And I hear I can bring my character into Destiny 2. How do I do?

regmcfly

Diluted Dante wrote:

In Final Fantasy XI there was a system called Conquest. Destiny could straight up rip this off, because helpfully we have equivalents for all of it.

In Conquest, you fought for your nation. There were 3 of them. We have 3 factions. You only earnt conquest points if you had a status effect called Signet. The equivilent here is equipping the faction class item. Kills with Signet active increased your nations allegiance. Dying decreased it and increased the influence of the beastmen. Swap beastmen for the Darkness.

It ran on a weekly basis, as does Destiny. If your nation was top, you got benefits like certain vendors only being able to sell items from regions you controlled. This could work in Destiny not only with the factions, but with Xur as well.

It would mean that you would have to make switching between factions more difficult than at present, but would add more to the game. It would add reasons to play patrol beyond what currently exists too.

Thats a cool idea.

Elmlea

The grimoire stuff being buried in the app really surprises me. I'm amazed you can't see it in the game.

regmcfly

Someone (chalice I think) suggested having it up as you sit in loading menus. That's an elegant way of having it in place without making it overbearing for people who don't want the story.

Yossarian

I_R wrote:

I also think that it's Bungie doing the cutting rather than everyone's favourite bogeymen at Activision. Very easy to shell out for cut scenes when MS is footing the bill, when you're paying for them yourself I imagine it's a different proposition.

Surely Activision were footing the bill?

But yes, I'd heard rumours of Activision meddling before O'Donnell left, so I feel confident laying the blame on them.

WorKid wrote:

They should ditch the shooting mechanics totally and add small cars. 150 cc type things. Then replace the avatars with more colourful cartoon-like characters. Then add back some sort of weapons system but based on carapaces and vegetation rather than explosives.

Ah, you mean make it more like the not-GotY-2014? Radical idea.

regmcfly

The logical gap year between Destiny 1 and 2 is Destiny Kart

Billy

More raids! The raids are awesome, there's no instructions, no Dinklage voiceover, the mechanics are different from the rest of the game, the skill required is high and the punishment is harsh.

Less boring other missions! The story mission designers need to take a leaf out of the raid designers book. How about instead of going to an area to get your ghost to activate a console why you defend the area, you could meet up with some of the mysterious characters that only pop up in cutscenes. And the 3 of you do some mini activity a little like the opening of the vault of glass to complete the mission. Just you and 2 ai, or 3 player co-op.

Other more interesting co-op story missions could include other raid mechanics like the team have to distract the fallen walker in a particular way to open a portal and grab an item that allows them to defeat the walker meaning he wasn't a bullet sponge anymore. There's probably way better mission mechanics to come up with.

Minor raid spoilers in this next bit FYI

Raid mechanics in pvp! Has to fucking happen! Currently pvp feels awesome because Bungie combat. But the game modes are simple and few. Let's have some crazy portals and relics in pvp! Or how about flag with modifiers such as weight of darkness. Get those fucking Crota totems in pvp! What about the confluxes get them in there! The Oracles man, couple those with some portals in pvp and that would be freaking awesome! What about oracle/portal Runnning time trials with the outside teams trying to stitch each other up!

The possibilities are endless, the mechanics are there, they just need to sort it out.

Webbins

I_R wrote:

I think the lore is there, but it's presented in the cheapest way possible - through the cards. The plot might be there, but it's barely moved forward an inch on what might be a huge journey or a wild goose chase.

That's the issue. To get wrapt up in the lore, you have to go looking for it. Cards on a website is a mistake, cards in game better, best when the story, quality of cut scene, etc. removes the need for cards altogether. Destiny deserves to have a story and presence as well crafted as its mechanics. I want to care more for this game beyond its core gameplay.

Better that they had ripped out the story altogether, the repetition of missions essentially makes the plot redundant anyway. You are a Guardian, these races are the bad guys, to level up you need better armour, to kill the harder bad guys you need better guns, now go to it.

I_R

Yossarian wrote:

Surely Activision were footing the bill?

Activision are paying them a set amount to make the games then splitting the profits, Bungie is a separate company. Anything over budget I'd assume has to be paid for by Bungie.

Billy

Gonzo wrote:

You are narrow minded. You pbought this because bungie. Were this anyone else you wouldn't have bought it, let alone persevered. A little self-awarrness goes a long way

Here we go again, this is why the other thread is 500+ pages. Sigh.

You are WRONG, making assumptions, and rude.

Before Destiny came out I was vocal about it looking shit, I didn't preorder. Then it came out and people really enjoyed it despite the mess of a story, after a few weeks I bought it. I bought it on the strength of friends here like Nexx, tiger and dubs enjoying it not because it came from one studio or another.

Bungie doesn't get a free pass, no one does, not for me.

I've been vocal about not paying any attention to the story in destiny and the reason it doesn't bother me is because I didn't expect a good one, in my book Bungie are NOT good at story telling, the story of their halo games is daft, pompous and over rated IMO and I pay no attention to it.

And people still call me a fanboy ffs. You're talking total rubbish Gonzo, if you haven't got something constructive to add to this so far, mostly constructive thread then don't bother.

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