The Last of Us - Spoilers, not spores - The Bear and Badger

Tempy

Just thought i'd give this a home as a few people have finished up and spoiler talk is getting heavy in the thread.

So, ecological tragedy eh? I'll copy my a level witterings here later, I'm at work so forum navigation is flaky.

And that transition from Autumn to Winter? Strong moves.

Tempy

I had a good old chat with Nick about this last night.

So we were talking about the giraffes, and the fact that monkeys and dogs didn't take the infection that we saw. Now ignoring the dogs and monkeys, I laboured on the idea that the giraffes were symbolic of a lot, and as it's a narrative story with themes and stuff you've got to give a story teller a little leeway to interject fantastical occurances without regard for the plot logic (how did they mange to avoid infection?)

Then I hit on a different note that had been bugging me for a bit. I found that the game had a very Monsters feel (as in 2010 about the trip through a quarantine zone) It got me thinking about the infected as a whole. Instead of the usual Z word stuff, these things aren't a hostile threat. Sure, the fungual infection grows in the brain and blinds the victims turning them mad as it decomposes their think tanks, but these things are frequently found in dark, dank spore filled spaces.

The real fungus this game took its inspiration from can infect insects and cause them to find a place that allows them to propogate their spores without hinderance. God knows if it was NDs intention, but it all seems to me to be very much an Enviromental Tragedy story. The infection is a way of nature balancing things back out, an evolution of the most basic of lifeforms on the planet that enchroaches on the destructive human way of life. They're essentially docile lumps of mould when snuck past, only getting aggravated when they sense a way of continuing their growth. One would suspect that dogs, monkeys, giraffes and countless other animals would go out of their way to avoid them, as they can coexist with the world in a way humans can't.

For me then, it's no surprise that the most civilised and levelheaded humans you come across in the game have powered their city via a hydroelectric plant. Not only is it practical in the setting, but also indicative of a symbiosis with nature that was lost before. Unlike the zeds of countless other films, the infected are not a force that invades, but instead responds to aggresive invasion with lethal force whilst otherwise remaining docile. It's just nature levelling things out again.

Probably reads a bit A level theory, but their are lots of elements that I reckon support it, and for me the infected really were a brilliantly handled idea, thematically if not mechanically.

Also re the chat about winter (what a bit right guys?)

How many of you let out a proper WTF at the end of Autumn? What starts out as a litle scripted fight turns into something seriously unexpected. ND are the masters of transitioning from standard gameplay into something utterly unique. Ellie as a companion makes Elizabeth from Infinte look like a bit of a joke I reckon, they got her stabbing takedowns utterly spot on, fist biting, wincing affairs every time.

Skerret

I'll not read anything in here but this thread reminds me that I rarely play games before the third 'retrospective' thread appears. BOOHOO

Bob

I particularly liked the way Ellie got progressively less cheery and good natured as the story progressed due to what she'd been exposed too.. felt a lot more likely than Lara's recent reboot..

Ali

The way I see it, the game is presenting an infection and a cure, but not the obvious fungal spores and Ellie. Parallel to that is the infection over millenia of the human race and it's effect on the natural world, and the mutated fungal spore that is the cure.

It's pretty telling that the animals you meet along the way are all animals that have previously been captive or under human ownership. The township dogs, the laboratory monkeys, the zoo giraffes. Might be reading too much into it but their new found freedom from humanity might be part of the overall message. The only wildlife we meet, the rabbit and deer, are killed, brutally, shortly after. The blood from the wounded deer in the snow seemed so stark and the arrow through the rabbit, despite being a necessity, was presented as shockingly as possible.

The brutality we see along the way is all inflicted by humans on humans as well. Is it coincidence that the infected only attack other humans and the other animals, specifically the monkeys that act as a vector, are unaffected by the contagion?

I was initially doubtful about the ending. To have one person, especially a character we've got to know so well and one we've seen as upstanding and trustworthy, should decided to make such an impactful decision on humanity and also lie to the one person he truly trusts and that trusts him, seemed so at odds with his character. But Joel has witnessed the worst brutality that humanity can resort to and that he decides to not give the Fireflys the potential for a cure actually seems incredibly fitting. He's tired of humanity and wants to live simply with the few loved ones he has left...Tommy and Ellie, and to hell with the rest of the human race. That he returns to the only group trying to live in harmony with nature, as Tempy pointed out on the other thread, also seems right, in the end, and completes the ecological message rather well.

Regarding the giraffes, I don't think it's coincidence that we see them just before they reach the hospital. Joel sees, for the first time perhaps, that nature will always find a balance. Their freedom and acceptance of their new home shows Joel that life may have changed dramatically, but that it can continue as it is, without the need for a cure for humanity. In fact, having seen what he's seen over 20 years, he obviously decided that the loss of the human race will impact positively on the natural world. That they chose giraffes is perhaps symbolic of the peace that's been restored to the natural order. Giraffes have always been symbols of the peaceful side of nature. A non threatening species roaming freely amongst the carnage around them. A sign that life, post contagion, may actually be better than it was before.

Tempy

Yup, that's all pretty spot on with what I was getting to, and a lot more eloquent than I was saying it. Especially like the on point notion that the cure and infection are totally flipped around.

Quick Q, how many of you killed the doctors at the end, and how did you do it?

I put one between the eyes of the first, and the second... the third cowered under a table and I was a bit aghast that I'd so easily taken the first two out so brutally.

The zero load time between the last firefight and the surgery room really carried over the adrenaline and anger quite well, which reminds me of a comment I read about games struggling to follow cinema's aspirations before load times are eliminated and fast cuts to new scenarios are possible.

Ali

I only took out the one with the scalpel blade but I just walked towards him and pressed melee, Joel grabbed the blade and stabbed him in the jugular! The other two backed off and hid at that point.

For me, the most shocking part was the death of David. Ellie showed all the pent up rage she had from both the journey and before that, at the loss of her family and friends. It was stunningly brutal, yet completely appropriate. I'd like to know more about David and James, and I hope they feature in DLC. David, especially, seemed initially like a nice bloke. He wasn't an obvious monster, just someone driven over the moral boundaries of acceptable behaviour by circumstances and one who obviously didn't have anything like the stoicism or will power of Joel so gave into it. In many ways, they've been given similar situations but reacted completely differently. Of all the protagonists outwith Joel and Ellie, I actually found David the most interesting. He was very well played. You could tell he was conflicted over what he was doing but had made his choice and was changing from a nice bloke to a person he couldn't help become but was revulsed by. There was a huge amount of regret evident in his voice, especially when he and Ellie first meet. There was genuine pathos there. We seem to be being introduced to the pre contagion David at the deer and he morphs into the cannibalistic monster once he doesn't get his way. But, unlike so many 2D villains in games and Hollywood movies, he's extremely complex as a character.

A very interesting point on the Ellie vs humanity topic was made on another forum. All the Fireflies were looking for was a vaccine, not a cure. All this would mean is that the Fireflies would become immune to infection, though not to direct attack from the infected. THe problem there is also one of morality. Given how the Fireflies had suffered at the hands of both the government and the hunters, we would have to assume that they wouldn't be sharing the vaccine any time soon. Do the Fireflies deserve the right to become the only group of humans left? They certainly didn't show any hint of deserving that position. At the beginning, they're shown to be no more than criminals and terrorists, just as Tess and Joel are, and at the end they've become every bit as dictatorial and militaristic as the government they were supposed to be rebelling against. In essence, the vaccine would become a weapon for them and nothing would change, the cycle would just repeat itself. Joel, by removing Ellie from the equation, created unilateral disarmament and kept the status quo between all the groups. Which, I suspect, is what he wanted. Leave them to their continual petty struggles while he, Ellie, Tommy etc got on with their simple lives in the mountains.

Tempy

See I didn't even think of that bit with the Fireflies other than the fact I didn't like them due to their equally militaristic get up, and their isolation/lack of help offered to those who they claimed to offer hope for. Lots of stuff left unsaid in this game, which is a very good thing.

The David section was great. Ellie had learned well not to trust people, and despite the fact he gave her numerous chances to give in, I think she knew he was the only person she could have even vaguely trusted in that camp, and remaining angry in the face of his advances was the only way she could stop herself from being taken for a fool.

The fight in the burning restaurant was fantastic as well, tense as hell.

Bob

I think David was a monster.. He was clearly grooming Ellie for unsavoury things.. it was the fact that he was hiding it so well to begin with that made him worse.

Tempy

There's certainly that reading to be found in there.

Me and the GF had a conversation about the lack of female hunters, and decided it was pretty fine considering the setting of the game. Any hunters would have raped, murdered or kept women as slaves if they'd let them live at all.

Ali

Bob wrote:

I think David was a monster.. He was clearly grooming Ellie for unsavoury things.. it was the fact that he was hiding it so well to begin with that made him worse.

I'm not so sure. I do think there was genuine regret in his voice but that he'd crossed the line too long ago to go back now. As for women and children, was there not a woman's voice shouting to get the children to shelter when Ellie escaped and the bell started ringing? I'm sure there was.

Tempy

Yup, that was in a Q zone though, I was thinking about the Hunter groups and why they'd not have any femmes.

Ali

I'm positive I heard it in the snowstorm though.

Tempy

Oh, I totally misunderstood your post. That's interesting. I'd play it again and listen out for it, but I sold the game and gave the PS3 back to the guy I was borrowing it from.

Shinji

Just finished this off. Some interesting stuff in here. My thoughts on the giraffes were that they were there primarily to give us back Ellie. She had just annihilated David with the machete in the most violent scene in the game, I thought the giraffes gave us an opportunity to see her as the 14 year old girl again.

But I'll echo the sentiments regarding Ellie's character development. It was handled so well, never once did her character seem anything but real.

There was a point made in the main thread regarding the fact that we knew Sarah wasn't a main character therefore the effectiveness of the opening was slightly compromised.
I actually felt the complete opposite. The fact that I suspected that Sarah wasn't going to last very long only heightened the tension at the start then boom. That scene delivered like a ten tonne hammer. Amazing stuff.

Still processing most of it. Stunning game

stonechalice

Agreed. Still trying to take it all in. What a journey.

http://m.edge-online.com/features/the-last-of-us-the-definitive-postmortem-spoilers-be-damned/

Escape

I wonder how this went down at ND during development.

Dodgy Davo North was an ephebophile, but it wasn't clear if he was deviating by necessity. The only group of women we saw were at Tommy's dam. He was quite a thought-provoking survivor until he went panto. Ellie was a femme, but I don't know how intentional that was.

Here's a thing that puzzled me double cupboards...

At the beginning, the TV news report said that the Fireflies had claimed responsibility. Did I hear that right? I went through the game thinking we were searching for the terrorists who created the fungi because they were the best hope for a vaccine. I figured Joel was going to have to do it by force.

And then Marlene shows up, and - because it's a long game and I wasn't paying full attention early doors - I thought she was a different person. I didn't realise she was anything more than Ellie's adoptive mother. But there she is again!

I know her recorded messages explain why, but to entrust Ellie to Joel and Tess when you have a small army of men? Huh?!

Tempy

A small army of men tied up fighting the national guard

LazyGunn

Joel is also referred to as 'the smuggler' by marlene after delivering Ellie to them, implying the whole thing was intended to be covert

Escape

Tempy wrote:

A small army of men tied up fighting the national guard

How irresponsible.

Tempy

Thing is Marlene greets you with a gunshot wound to her stomach, something's clearly wrong. I imagine you're not Plan A, but rather Plan D or whatever. Like so much in the game, you won't ever know because the dialogue isn't interested in telling you every little thing.

The most important thing is this though: saying "why Joel?" deletes the entire narrative. It's the kind of question you can level at millions, if not all stories ever told.

"Why didn't they just..."

On the count of things left unsaid, Bill was gay, right?

LazyGunn

Tempy wrote:

On the count of things left unsaid, Bill was gay, right?

That's how i took it. Loved how understated (almost unstated) it was. I just went 'oh he's probably gay' then thats it. Which basically makes it one of the most respectable treatments of a gay guy in games so far

stonechalice

Yeah that was a very grown up way of handling it I thought.

Shinji

I thought it was fairly well put but the magazine that Ellie pulls out in the car ride destroys any doubts

Shinji

Although it was very funny

Tempy

Shinji wrote:

I thought it was fairly well put but the magazine that Ellie pulls out in the car ride destroys any doubts

oh, duh. I forgot about that. It was introduced tactfully at least. I'm still left wondering if his 'partner' reciprocated fully.

Shinji

Well there was a letter from the partner in the apartment expressing his hatred of Bill. Didn't hint at anything forced just that Bill was a miserable bastard

Ali

Tempy wrote:

On the count of things left unsaid, Bill was gay, right?

I thought that was pretty much taken for granted when you came across Frank's body and he got so emotional. Also explains why he wouldn't leave the town despite it being overrun with infected. He was still in a state of denial, hence his angry outbursts about Frank as well. I also thought David might be gay, but in a more sinister way, Stuart Hall/Jimmy Saville, way. His relationship with James seemed to have sexual overtones and I wonder if James is one of David's pets that was allowed to escape the dinner table?

LazyGunn

I have to say that at the point Ellie meets David, David is a monster, however he got to that point, even if it was a result of the social forces working on people after so much time and danger after the infection spread. Most human encounters seemed to imply great kinship within groups that were savage and murderous to those outside the group - this might be some deliberate comment on tribes and pack mentality (Not so long ago civilisations known for greatness weren't too afraid of raping and pillaging), but either way to those who tried to keep their head, it's monstrous behaviour. Actually Joel might have also come under this category upon meeting him in the game proper where his partner and himself were cold and efficient survivors, the female even more outwardly hostile and cynical, and Joel referencing many of the shitty things he has done throughout the game - a guy who was just a regular guy in the opening.

Maybe the process of saving Ellie was Joel's emancipation, and one of the more selfish sides of his final decision. It's his own healing as a person that he wants to maintain along with everything else.

The edge article talked about that final moment and the lie, and they brought up the idea that Ellie was letting him lie. She knew it was a lie (She repeatedly shows moments of extreme insight during the game) and she let him get away with it and just went for it. Joel had a lot more to think about, telling that lie, but Ellie may have understood the basic motivations behind it, and she was basically just fine with it.

Also i think another point is that as far as Joel and Ellie are concerned, they aren't to know (its actually unlikely) that Ellie is the only one with immunity, and they are not sacrificing humankind as a lot of the talk seems to be implying, it seems to me they'd just be forced to live with nature a little more warily and harmoniously, and considering the fireflies, as in the intro, are politically motivated, even assuming they create a vaccine etc, it could then be a political tool with massive leverage

Ali

He's revealed to be a monster, but when you first meet him, he just seems like a nice guy but one that's hiding something, or feeling guilty about something. To me it's a commentary that people who were probably perfectly nice, respectable members of society can become the very people they would have reviled in normal society. David gave into base instincts, and it'd be intrigueing to have more of his back story to understand how he got there. Nolan North doe, IMHO, his best work yet with David. He creates a multi-layered, multi faceted bad guy, not a generic video game MWAHAHAHA villain. The impression I got when he met Ellie was that the original side of his nature came out. Yes, he was a cannibal, and almost certainly a paedophile as well, but something in Ellie brought out a little of his better nature, if only briefly. It's only when Ellie rejects him that we slowly see him morph into the true villain. And boy, did he get his just desserts! Has to be the greatest death in video gaming so far!

LazyGunn

And out of empathy to Ellie, one of the most brutal too, in empathy imagine seeing that from her eyes, too angry to not do it, while being some she could never forget

Her lostness was profound at the start of the next section, i think maybe her dejection should have carried on a bit to hit home, but i got no qualms about her joy at the giraffes, i dont think it was just to let us see the youthful happy 14 year old again, it was much to give her some powerful thoughts that things can be good again

Although she might go settle with Joel after the denouement, she wont be forgetting this stuff though. I really do not want there to be a sequel to this game. But it would be interesting to see how Ellie panned out, given those experiences.

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