Are "Wavy Wavy" Controls The Future Or A Misguided Movement (Ho Ho!)? - The Bear and Badger

Escape

Depends on distance and steadiness of hand. A graphics tablet with lift-off tracking is probably the most accurate for something like an RTS.

LazyGunn

Yossarian wrote:

LazyGunn wrote:

You don't need a treadmill, you don't need to totally be something to enjoy immersion (its like saying gamepads will never catch on because they don't feel like walking, or monitors will never catch on because real vision is never that small and flat and not-moving)

No, those examples are entirely unrelated. Both gamepads and monitors work because they're so abstracted from reality they are their own paradigm and are accepted as such. The entire promise of VR is based on amazing levels of immersion that are above and beyond anything we've ever seen before, but the fact is that the immersion we're being offered is limited to turning your head to move your camera through 180 degrees across two axes.

you've really never used it, whats the point in talking stuff out that you dont know the nature of? Noones said anything about it being any of the things you've just said, everything you just said is irrelevant, just that it's a goal of some people(to what degree you can move your head is utterly irrelevant to the core concept it presents, but you can rotate your head through all 3 axis, and the dk2 can track its position too). What actually happens can go by whichever dev is making stuff for it, but its not a 'human simulator', it doesnt have to be anything like being a human, in fact its main appeal to me is offering experiences totally different to walking around as a human all the time. you wont have expected it

Yossarian

LazyGunn wrote:

Yossarian wrote:

LazyGunn wrote:

You don't need a treadmill, you don't need to totally be something to enjoy immersion (its like saying gamepads will never catch on because they don't feel like walking, or monitors will never catch on because real vision is never that small and flat and not-moving)

No, those examples are entirely unrelated. Both gamepads and monitors work because they're so abstracted from reality they are their own paradigm and are accepted as such. The entire promise of VR is based on amazing levels of immersion that are above and beyond anything we've ever seen before, but the fact is that the immersion we're being offered is limited to turning your head to move your camera through 180 degrees across two axes.

you've really never used it, whats the point in talking stuff out that you dont know the nature of? Noones said anything about it being any of the things you've just said, everything you just said is irrelevant, just that it's a goal of some people(to what degree you can move your head is utterly irrelevant to the core concept it presents, but you can rotate your head through all 3 axis, and the dk2 can track its position too).

Yes, I know, but doing so is totally impractical in the real world for any distance unless you own either some kind of treadmill or an infinite plane.

What actually happens can go by whichever dev is making stuff for it, but its not a 'human simulator', it doesnt have to be anything like being a human, in fact its main appeal to me is offering experiences totally different to walking around as a human all the time. you wont have expected it

Maybe, but I don't see this as opening up a wealth of new experiences. To me it's more Kinect than analogue stick thus far.

cockbeard

Some people sing, some people play guitar. At the minute VR is a bad vocoder

edit: or maybe it's autotune nowadays, it's making progress but it ain't singing

WorKid

To me the point of games is doing things I can't do.

A walking simulation is pointless.

Equally pointless is full body tracking since I'm overweight, middle-aged and inflexible. Very few heroes have these characteristics. If I press (say) R R R B B A in a fighting game I can pull off amazing moves. Don't expect me to replicate these in real life!

Gunn is right, new tools open up new possibilities and it's up to good devs to make them work.

b0r1s

Wavy wavy isn't really targeting most of the people on this forum I would guess. It will take youngsters to naturally adapt to any kind of tactile-less control system like Kinect as they won't be programmed by 30+ year muscle memory of click button equals response.

The same with touch. I'm fine with touch on games like FTL and PvZ's etc, but for realtime action games I can't get past the idea that touch just doesn't work. Younger kids are fine playing Minecraft on iPads, so the next step would be Leap like tech for the new generation of players.

dynamiteReady

Escape wrote:

Depends on distance and steadiness of hand. A graphics tablet with lift-off tracking is probably the most accurate for something like an RTS.

I do wonder why no-one's ever bothered to leverage the graphics tab for entertainment. I suppose it's application is too similar to that of the mouse for a dev to think it's worth targeting exclusively.

Another thing I also wonder about is the haptic mouse (2D ones. 3D ones are interesting but too exotic for this discussion)... Adding a rumble pack to a mouse didn't seem like a bad idea at the time, and could've possibly had many applications outside of games if it found a market, but the idea was almost dropped the day after it was commercialised...

b0r1s

For such a precision device, I'd assume a rumble would throw off your aim etc, which could actually be useful for adding a layer of realism for FPS games.

As for graphics tablets, too niche innit?

dynamiteReady

Think about what a rumble pad mouse would do for blind people...

Yossarian

I'm probably being a bit overly harsh in my comparison of OR to Kinect. I do expect it will find a market in driving and flight sim (are those even still a thing) enthusiasts, for whom this will work as advertised. I even see a great Mech game and Wing Commander type experience in its future, but beyond this, I think that the tech is currently extremely limited due to the physical restraints of people's game playing space. I don't see a large number of new experiences being created by remapping a few controls to your head in far more limited ways than we're currently used to with joypads. In fact, I don't see any.

Yossarian

Come to think of it, even those games that should work with OR are going to have to work out how to get around not having a representation of your hands and controls in the game. Being unable to see where your hand is in relation to your gear shift, for instance, even if you only need to look one time in a hundred, could be an issue.

dynamiteReady

I don't think these concerns will be a game breaking issue for (example) a half decent driving sim though... Or any game that carefully accounts for the limitations of the medium.

But that doesn't detract from my gripe with the recent VR hype train...

It irks me, because a load of people are writing a lot of gumpth, but to me, it still only feels like I'm putting a box with a pair of screens over my head. If there's software out there to help me shake that perception, then I'll show it all more respect. Right now, though, it all seems overpriced...

Even at Google cardboard level.

I'm looking very forward to the Attenborough project though. That might change things.

b0r1s

Until we get this...

...they can all do one!

cockbeard

That broken link had better be a hoverboard

WorKid

Star Wars 2018.

Control pad in the hands for steering and a VR helmet to look around in space and voice control to tell R2 what to do.

LazyGunn

Unless you've used one you're in no position to comment. Dynamite's used one but it doesnt sound like much time was given, or decent alone-time with a suitable game or application. The game show demos ive seen are good for going 'hey it does this in about ten seconds' but arent representative of a thing people will actually use it for. Perfects examples of the rift providing decent evidence of change are the most mundane games going without it - stuff like dear esther or even, curse it, euro struck simulator (seriously its quite something in vr). You have to have half an hour plus with these to have had an experience as such, and every person i've had go at dear esther in vr has had a similar sentiment to mine about it (My partner simply said she pitied everyone who will never experience that). I don't see it as a hype train, maybe by some, for me its just common sense (I'm not very hyped about radio but i like some of the music on it) and the anti-vr stuff makes no sense to me, its not a matter of 'good' or 'bad', it is what it is, good or bad will depend on the developer entirely

Comparing it to kinect is absolutely ridiculous, although the kinect has now made its technology cheap enough to be manufactured at a large scale in tiny sensors, a-la leap motion, and is going to be featuring in phones probably ubiquitously in a few years (Google's already making models containing such). It'll be the same size as your camera in your phone, i.e. tiny, and you'll notice it as much as you notice you phone's proximity sensor or its magnetometer. This is one of the technologys along with VR that will be converging to create something else, so maybe in this regard it can be compared - making a qualitative comparison makes no sense though (its like comparing your gamepad to your monitor, it makes no sense)

stonechalice

The Wiimote plus nunchuk was a revelation. The biggest draw for me was that I didn't have to have my hands together and resting on my knees or in my lap, holding a bulky pad. I could play a game laid back with my hands at my side. The nunchuk is something I'm very surprised no one else has really imitated.

A nunchuk in each hand would be perfect for most games, especially FPS games. There really isn't any need for conventional face buttons anymore. You could have most of the buttons mapped to the underside of the nunchuk, not just one trigger and a shoulder button. I think it would be quite intuitive rather quickly.

The main problem with console FPS's is that a lot of the time you must take your thumb off the right stick for certain actions such as jumping and reloading, messing your continual aim up, unless you use bumper jumper or the horrid claw method, and even then those methods are not suited to all games.

Having a nunchuk in each hand would allow for very fast fluid FPS play, having to get used to a few buttons in places you wouldn't expect would be the only downside, but considering how widespread the nunchuk is, it wouldn't take long for people to adjust. You could also have them wireless/bluetooth connected.

It seems to me a massive oversight from Sony and MS to not look at their controllers and think maybe the whole template needs a re jig. A new generation of games with the same old controls, it's no surprise that devs aren't innovating when the methods of control haven't changed in years.

As for the wavy wavy nonsense? You're off your head if you think they will impact our hobby in any significant way. They were utter shite when they were first realised, they remain utter shite now.

The best example ever of wavy shite was Wii Sports, and that was the first proper game that included them. There's nothing more to be done.

A surprising novelty that lasted way longer than it should've.

cockbeard

I'm with chalice there, the whole stick and egg combo seems a great idea, why should we be stuck with our hands together. Nintendo and Sony both did it last gen, I also recall patents for a controller that would split into two constituent parts, which gives the user that flexibility

stonechalice

I was certainly expecting more of a leap from the new consoles' control interface. There is so much more that could be done. I think they could market them really well too. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that they couldn't introduce something similar down the line.

They just need a killer game to show them off with.

I'm still very optimistic about VR and OR, but you lot talking about treadmills and stuff? Behave!

The best VR experiences I think will come from the same kind of visual/audio treats we enjoy today, coupled with an exciting, new control input like the one I mentioned above, to be enjoyed from the comfort of my armchair or sofa thank you very much.

dynamiteReady

LazyGunn wrote:

Unless you've used one you're in no position to comment. Dynamite's used one but it doesnt sound like much time was given, or decent alone-time with a suitable game or application.

That's true. That's why I'm not dismissing the movement* outright.

*Yes. Punderstand...

LazyGunn

Some good points stone, the point about comfort goes back to VR, as outside of your usual big newfangled alternative reality game things, it also gives a proper comfortable home in which to play emulated games or watch films entirely on your back. Not often mentioned and not something you find out at events, but a lovely experience. Particularly emulated games in fact.

Regarding wavy wavy, again in vr they gain relevance as they move to appropriate a physical hand in 3D space - most well known of these is the hydra controller

dynamiteReady

But also realise that I've had enough of a go to see that a 30 minute stint with my head in such a thing could be more draining than entertaining*.

*Get down wit' dem fly lines, homie.

WorKid

Who's used Google cardboard yet? The tuscan villa demo is available for that.

Yossarian

FTR, I have used VR headsets before. Not Oculus Rift specifically, but many of the drawbacks are going to be identical, so dismissing my opinions based on my not having used OR may be a tad presumptuous.

stonechalice

I'm excited to get my hands on Valves effort for a controller. That at least seems to be striving for a better way at doing things...

Brooks

Receiver was pretty great, loved its zeal for authentic fiddliness.

LazyGunn

Yossarian wrote:

FTR, I have used VR headsets before. Not Oculus Rift specifically, but many of the drawbacks are going to be identical, so dismissing my opinions based on my not having used OR may be a tad presumptuous.

Well.. they're not, im assuming you've not been using multi-thousand pound medical equipment, and I don't know of anything prior to the rift or medical stuff that uses this particular optical technology (oculus/'real' vr is an optical effect, regardless of how you move or orient yourself). Could you link to what you used? Was it just a display in front of your eyes or 45mm focal length biconvex lenses viewing an image for each eye that had a barrel distortion post effect? It's just your posts seem to reflect you seeing a display, whereas in my experience the viewing of a display is not really a 'thing', youre not looking at the display.

Dynamite if you were using the DK1 then i agree, it can get pretty mucky after a while of use, as in im pretty prone to the nausea it can create and i have to take a break before too long. The DK2 i've read identifies and negates these issues, so i'm looking forwards to getting one

Interestingly, probably because of the much better screens (HTC One and Galaxy S3) ive never remotely felt bad using cardboard for durations, very handy considering im making stuff for it

davyK

stonechalice wrote:

The Wiimote plus nunchuk was a revelation. The biggest draw for me was that I didn't have to have my hands together and resting on my knees or in my lap, holding a bulky pad. I could play a game laid back with my hands at my side. The nunchuk is something I'm very surprised no one else has really imitated.

A nunchuk in each hand would be perfect for most games, especially FPS games. There really isn't any need for conventional face buttons anymore. You could have most of the buttons mapped to the underside of the nunchuk, not just one trigger and a shoulder button. I think it would be quite intuitive rather quickly.

Indeed. Have mentioned it a few times , as have others (Mr B being one) that the Wii FPS control was the business - and could/should have revolutionised the genre. In addition to this, Link's Crossbow Practice with the zapper let you mount the nunchuck on the zapper and in the roaming levels it was a compulsive experience as it introduced the idea of actually physically aiming whilst moving around. Call of Duty on Wii benefited from this too.

stonechalice wrote:

As for the wavy wavy nonsense? You're off your head if you think they will impact our hobby in any significant way. They were utter shite when they were first realised, they remain utter shite now.

The best example ever of wavy shite was Wii Sports, and that was the first proper game that included them. There's nothing more to be done.

A surprising novelty that lasted way longer than it should've.

Indeed. It was improved with Wii Sports Resort but Nintendo knew it had its limitations even early on. Most Wii games use traditional control schemes - something people who didn't delve into the Wii library seem to have missed. The Wii was not all about wavy wavy.

dynamiteReady

stonechalice wrote:

The best example ever of wavy shite was Wii Sports.

Yes. That and Wario.

stonechalice wrote:

There's nothing more to be done. A surprising novelty that lasted way longer than it should've.

No...

Baseball, tennis and bowling alone were worthy of full on sequels.
And like you say, the FPS angle also sounds like it's worth further exploration.

What's more, having a console with a standardised pointing device (one that's arguably more intuitive than a mouse too) would've made a point and click revival viable too...

Right now, that genre's in the anteroom with Keith Richards, snorting coke and talking raucously about the good old days when they both used to hit on 12 year girls...

The Grim Fandango tour will see no real increase in fans, but a big screen version of Professor Layton on the Wii (or some other wavy wavy rip off) would have got somewhere, I thought.

WorKid

It did, briefly.

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