Games and morality
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mistercrayon wrote:
Every piece Of lighting, running, Ragdoll, physics is tough. We haven't got from doom to today automatically. It's a series of Nudges and nurdles forward certain technologies have been pushed and prioritised over others. For every step made money and effort was invested to make that step. If twenty years of investment was made in just getting faces right and getting physical contact right where might we be now? Look at ico on ps one shows how much even subtle physical contact on rudimentary hardware can be affecting. That was one niche game!My issue with this 'FUCK' vs 'DOOM' scenario is that what we consider 'realistic violence' is as about as far removed from real violence as you can get. It's comic violence in poor set dressing. Despite America's obsession with violence, they still can't get the collision detection of the materials involved right. We do not have accurately tearing flesh and splintering bones because it is technically prohibitive. If we had FUCK instead, we would be in largely the same situation with sex. The interaction of two physical fleshy objects is hard enough to manage, let alone the materials minefield that is simulated sex.
But we have spent 20 years trying to get faces right. The industry is obsessed with it. Look at Crysis, at Uncharted, at any big AAA game with faces in. They're obsessed with realism and the illusion of contact and reaction between rendered bodies. But it takes so much processing power to do it. As much as I'm over simplifying it, so are you. Look at those MKX fatalities. Even with all that willpower and tech poured into it, it still cannot get little things right, things still clip, artifacts are still required to even begin emulate liquid gore. -
I await CrySpunk 4.0
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The biggest games have focused on getting lots of just good enough people on screen though. MK is a product of a history where until recently the best 2d fighters games were hand drawn Cell and 3rd and 1st person shooters were the norm.
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mistercrayon wrote:The biggest games have focused on getting lots of just good enough people on screen though. MK is a product of a history where until recently the best 2d fighters games were hand drawn Cell and 3rd and 1st person shooters were the norm.
Yer Heavy Rain, yer Infamous. Cmon pal. -
And those MK fatalities are reducing the game to pre-rendered segments where only two characters interact, yet they cannot avoid clipping.
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I mean I'd understand if id said "it's all because of tech" but I haven't. It's partly because of tech. It's partly the US attitude. It's partly the money involved in both development and sales.
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Those were exceptions man and you know it. The principle drivers of tech in games have been focused on making action games work. Unreal crysis rendErware. To get those fundamentals to work requires focus.
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mistercrayon wrote:Those were exceptions man and you know it. The principle drivers of tech in games have been focused on making action games work. Unreal crysis rendErware. To get those fundamentals to work requires focus.
Virtual spacey, LA Noire, the transformation of Lara Croft to tress fx, the underpinning focus of every sports game ever, hell even a thing of goldeneye was the mapped faces. It's been there, just under other forms. -
Yes, they are exceptions. And those exceptions would stand out in a simulation of sex.
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Given this is what I do for jobs n that.
We will always be chasing true realism.
Uncanny valley isn't a destination to be overcome, it is a reality.
We will get very very close, we have made leaps and leaps but we will always fall short.
For that very reason I will always champion a game/film/tv show that embraces its limitations and goes for a stylized approach.
Mkx kind of does this but steps maybe a foot over the line that makes it judgemental by real world standards.
SF4 on the other hand set out an art style that means the unbelievable is possible.
In an odd way I think MK handles this by being super violent, the shock makes it comic.
I am prob protecting something I love with a poor argument. I will leave it as...
At least MK isn't boring and I think games have become very boring.
(Also MKX has made a point of toning down sexualized characters and should be at least noted for its efforts in agenere that has been often obscene) -
I mean, now I think about it, sports games, with their physicality an physics and real people are our best reason why we not had it. Not exactly a niche market and still floppy as sin.
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It's a ludicrous hypothetical alternate universe I'm constructing. All I'm suggesting is we could be arguing in an alternative world where games primarily consist if two people having a chat over tea and the graphics are super realistic that there should be games with millions of people to shoot and we dont need every pore follicle and lash to be rendered.
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The uncanny valley is created by tiny issues with simulated bodies instantly being recognisable on a subconscious level to people. Games are FULL of contact between bodies, look at any game. It's a fundamental thing that happens every where, and it is by and large done terrible. We've games obsessed with guns and shooting, yet it's all still largely abstraction because the real physical consequence of metal tearing cloth, penetrating armour, entering the flesh and causing real bleeding, are beyond entertainment processing systems.
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regmcfly wrote:I mean, now I think about it, sports games, with their physicality an physics and real people are our best reason why we not had it. Not exactly a niche market and still floppy as sin.
A ridiculous blindspot. Oops.
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I mean we have a hard enough time simulating the relatively simple physics of solid objects such as cars. Look how hard we pump data into sims, only to ultimately fall short. It will take decades more. And computational power is not a limitless resource.
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main point. MK is what it has always been, if anything they have toned down the massive tits.
It is cartoon.
On the other hand there is a meme going round right now that is "imagine if there was a real modern warfare "
Posted by some spaz kid on Twitter. -
If there was a real modern warfare it would likely be greatly intensely dull and tedious and then completely so scary that you wouldn't want to ever play it again.
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Right but I don't get what that has to do with the inability for games that are obsessed with violence to simulate said violence to a degree where, if you were to flip it to Crayon's analogue, we'd have games that could simulate physical bodies interacting to a realistic degree.
Edit: you can't counter the assertion that games are shit at collision and depictions of flesh physics by using MKX and then saying its only bad in parts because it's a cartoon. -
Liveinadive wrote:if anything they have toned down the massive tits. It is cartoon.
I keep reading this back and it just makes me giggle. You are clearly having a great day off work
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I actually think MK is a fairly good example. Same with Sniper jobby.
In that it at least shows where a hit is taken. Compare that to something like Halo that consists of obscure if accurate hit boxes.
Ok it may boil down to a cinematic but if in that cinemtic a knee is thrust into ribs the ribs break.
In near all other games it is an abstraction of pain and disablement.
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regmcfly wrote:Me thinks there's a conflation here between "accurate" and "realistic"
Illustrative, perhaps?
Explicit?
Anytime I see this topic, I always think of 'two girls one cup'..."I didn't get it. BUUUUUUUUUUUT, you fucking do your thing." - Roujin
Ninty Code: SW-7904-0771-0996 -
Rumour is that Koj pits you against child soldiers in Phantom Pain. Could be interesting.
Spoiler: -
@tempy
ref MK tits.
look at MK9 characters compared to MKX.
they have toned it down massively. Yeah they aren't every man but they have made more of an effort than most.
Maybe look before high horsing. -
I have no idea why you've brought up MK9/X's tits, I have no idea what you're on about. I never mentioned them. I quoted you because you brought it up so out of the blue and it made me laugh. I do not know what I am supposedly high horsing about here.
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I think you will find I am all kinds of fucked and talking out of my ass.
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Liveinadive wrote:I think you will find I am all kinds of fucked and talking out of my ass.
And ITS A WRAP FOLKS
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