Games and morality - The Bear and Badger

hunk

So ao is gaming's grindhouse?
And that's sadly not a compliment.

regmcfly

I don't think that's what he's saying. He's saying you can have your complex, depressing, realistic, political, and most importantly, the ADULT in adults only, games without an AO. It's a classification label with a very set cultural meaning in the U.S.
I mean, how many R18 DVDs do you have in your house?

Tempy

hunk wrote:

So ao is gaming's grindhouse? And that's sadly not a compliment.

What else would AO be? It isn't a classification system built on the breadth, depth and analysis of themes. It is built to certify what the content is. Depending on the context, Sex and Violence trigger AO ratings. Plumbing the depth of the human condition, does not.

Tempy

Sorry I'm just struggling to get what the thrust of your point is. What should an AO game be, to you?

mistercrayon

What does ultra realism mean? More than realistic? not realistic? Above realism?

In every medium there is dorky horrible shite. Videogames will have its nonsense in the same way there are loads of racist songs films and books.

If anything it's the games media that are normalising this crap and should be ashamed.

Tempy

If sex is what you're wanting, then Cara Ellison did a bunch of articles about sex and games, here:

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/tag/s-exe/

edit The problem with sex is that it is largely difficult to do in games. Violence is easier, we've spent decades making games about destroying. The tactile and physical nature of the human body and sex is so much harder to emulate in code.

hunk

Tempy wrote:

Sorry I'm just struggling to get what the thrust of your point is. What should an AO game be, to you?

Not sure.
Was hoping AO meant more than sex and violence. I guess games and film do have something in common.

regmcfly

The bigger issue here is the mainstream acceptance of it in the more well known texts, and the way that reflexively pushes into society. Movies have been on a very Right Wing ideology since 2004, with your Transformers glorifying the military, Taken 1-3 being the "one man government" and so on.
We had Three Kings, Fight Club, The Matrix before 9/11 - no matter what you think of the quality of them, they all had much more left wing ideological stances.
It's worth considering these aspects more than "Hatred" which will influence a far smaller pattern of behaviour.

regmcfly

At uni, Austin Powers was on the reading list for "gender and identity".

Tempy

hunk wrote:

Sorry I'm just struggling to get what the thrust of your point is. What should an AO game be, to you?

Not sure. Was hoping AO meant more than sex and violence. I guess games and film do have something in common.

Ok, but what why?

AO is a rating certificate. It is nothing to do with the intelligence of the product. A pornographic film is rated X. Space Odyssey is a 12 in the UK on BluRay. Because the latter tackles ideas of the nature of existence, the meaning of life, what it is to be human in the infinite universe, does that mean it should be an X too?

I don't know what you want from a content based rating system. It isn't designed to categorise texts by theme and and meaning, it's there to alert consumers to the appropriate nature of the content within.

regmcfly

Tempy wrote:

hunk wrote:

Tempy wrote:

Sorry I'm just struggling to get what the thrust of your point is. What should an AO game be, to you?

Not sure. Was hoping AO meant more than sex and violence. I guess games and film do have something in common.

Ok, but what why?

AO is a rating certificate. It is nothing to do with the intelligence of the product. A pornographic film is rated X. Space Odyssey is a 12 in the UK on BluRay. Because it tackles ideas of the nature of existence, the meaning of life, what it is to be human in the infinite universe, does that mean it should be an X too?

I don't know what you want from a content based rating system. It isn't designed to categorise texts by theme and and meaning, it's there to alert consumers to the appropriate nature of the content within.

Even better. The feature (not extra content) of 2001 is a U on its own.

mistercrayon

Tempy wrote:

If sex is what you're wanting, then Cara Ellison did a bunch of articles about sex and games, here:

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/tag/s-exe/

edit The problem with sex is that it is largely difficult to do in games. Violence is easier, we've spent decades making games about destroying. The tactile and physical nature of the human body and sex is so much harder to emulate in code.

Heh. I think it might be the expansion of America in the scene of games.

There is way more squeem about sex than violence and it seems this is a reflection of the history of the West.

The biggest films of the eighties (the children of which who are leading now) were all violence based.

hunk

regmcfly wrote:

I mean, how many R18 DVDs do you have in your house?

Playboy bunnies do d....

Wait that was a rhetorical question right?

regmcfly

mistercrayon wrote:

Tempy wrote:

If sex is what you're wanting, then Cara Ellison did a bunch of articles about sex and games, here:

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/tag/s-exe/

edit The problem with sex is that it is largely difficult to do in games. Violence is easier, we've spent decades making games about destroying. The tactile and physical nature of the human body and sex is so much harder to emulate in code.

Heh. I think it might be the expansion of America in the scene of games.

There is way more squeem about sex than violence and it seems this is a reflection of the history of the West.

The biggest films of the eighties (the children of which who are leading now) were all violence based.

Aye, and once again, the 80s films were made under the shadow of the Reagans. A LITERAL COWBOY PRESIDENT. Hence your Commando, Your Rambo, hell even a Bond movie where he takes on the cartel. robocop is a subversive dream in comparison.

regmcfly

hunk wrote:

regmcfly wrote:

I mean, how many R18 DVDs do you have in your house?

Playboy bunnies do d....

Wait that was a rhetorical question right?

Sad fact - I doubt Playboy would even hit R18.

Tempy

mistercrayon wrote:

Tempy wrote:

If sex is what you're wanting, then Cara Ellison did a bunch of articles about sex and games, here: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/tag/s-exe/ edit The problem with sex is that it is largely difficult to do in games. Violence is easier, we've spent decades making games about destroying. The tactile and physical nature of the human body and sex is so much harder to emulate in code.

Heh. I think it might be the expansion of America in the scene of games.

I meant the physical act. Collision detection, real time malleable simulated materials that react and work like their physical counterparts. There's a reason many sex games are euphemistic, illustrative, or metaphorical, and it is not just down to the prudish entertainment ideologies of America.

mistercrayon

If there was a will they would have done it. All of the technical hurdles would be meT. Since doom there's been no desire to develop physical contact.

regmcfly

There's been plenty of different but no less eager pressure to bridge our pal canny valley but that's still not there.

Tempy

Yeah what Reg said. You gotta make your characters look less like glassy eyed freaks before you can create convincing physicality.

Its not wholly one or the other.

hunk

Tempy wrote:

mistercrayon wrote:

Tempy wrote:

If sex is what you're wanting, then Cara Ellison did a bunch of articles about sex and games, here: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/tag/s-exe/ edit The problem with sex is that it is largely difficult to do in games. Violence is easier, we've spent decades making games about destroying. The tactile and physical nature of the human body and sex is so much harder to emulate in code.

Heh. I think it might be the expansion of America in the scene of games.

I meant the physical act. Collision detection, real time malleable simulated materials that react and work like their physical counterparts. There's a reason many sex games are euphemistic, illustrative, or metaphorical, and it is not just down to the prudish entertainment ideologies of America.

Vibrating wireless USB fleshlights/dildos for multiplier online orgys.
.
What?

mistercrayon

Imagine if during the era of doom the breakout game was a game about close interpersonal relationships. The focus would have been high detail individual characters (in contrast to millions of functional and fast moving polls) and eventually with today's tech we'd be well over the uncanny Valley.

Tempy

I don't think it's that simple.

regmcfly

hunk wrote:

Tempy wrote:

mistercrayon wrote:

Tempy wrote:

If sex is what you're wanting, then Cara Ellison did a bunch of articles about sex and games, here: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/tag/s-exe/ edit The problem with sex is that it is largely difficult to do in games. Violence is easier, we've spent decades making games about destroying. The tactile and physical nature of the human body and sex is so much harder to emulate in code.

Heh. I think it might be the expansion of America in the scene of games.

I meant the physical act. Collision detection, real time malleable simulated materials that react and work like their physical counterparts. There's a reason many sex games are euphemistic, illustrative, or metaphorical, and it is not just down to the prudish entertainment ideologies of America.

Vibrating wireless USB fleshlights/dildos for multiplier online orgys.
.
What?

I mean I know it's a joke but that's partly the problem - it's the perception of sex you're talking about . I'll be honest and boring here and say the sex I have on the regular sadly does not involve orgies. I know, I know. But (#Molyneux) imagine an INTIMATE game. Not a titillating, or erotic one.

Tempy

My issue with this 'FUCK' vs 'DOOM' scenario is that what we consider 'realistic violence' is as about as far removed from real violence as you can get. It's comic violence in poor set dressing. Despite America's obsession with violence, they still can't get the collision detection of the materials involved right. We do not have accurately tearing flesh and splintering bones because it is technically prohibitive. If we had FUCK instead, we would be in largely the same situation with sex. The interaction of two physical fleshy objects is hard enough to manage, let alone the materials minefield that is simulated sex.

[Deleted User]

Check out MK 9 or X if you don't think accurate flesh tearing and bone breaking isn't being represented.

I mean it involves super human strength but the breaks and tears are pretty spot on.

Tempy

Yeah i've seen them and the collision detection is still piss. It's just comic violence in a gruesome dressing.

Tempy

I mean I'll say that X is certainly trying very, very hard.

regmcfly

Me thinks there's a conflation here between "accurate" and "realistic"

mistercrayon

Tempy wrote:

My issue with this 'FUCK' vs 'DOOM' scenario is that what we consider 'realistic violence' is as about as far removed from real violence as you can get. It's comic violence in poor set dressing. Despite America's obsession with violence, they still can't get the collision detection of the materials involved right. We do not have accurately tearing flesh and splintering bones because it is technically prohibitive. If we had FUCK instead, we would be in largely the same situation with sex. The interaction of two physical fleshy objects is hard enough to manage, let alone the materials minefield that is simulated sex.

Every piece Of lighting, running, Ragdoll, physics is tough. We haven't got from doom to today automatically. It's a series of Nudges and nurdles forward certain technologies have been pushed and prioritised over others. For every step made money and effort was invested to make that step.

If twenty years of investment was made in just getting faces right and getting physical contact right where might we be now?

Look at ico on ps one shows how much even subtle physical contact on rudimentary hardware can be affecting. That was one niche game!

Tempy

I mean take the Sub Zero one where he jumps on the dude on the ice spikes, then the breathing means that the ice spikes just clip through his clothing. Considering the theatre of sex, with stocking and silk and underwear and god knows what else, it's gonna need to be far better than that.

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