Now eating/drinking
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SpaceGazelle wrote:
I learnt vegans get angry when they eat honey today. Normally I admire vegans, who are vegetarians without the hypocrisy, but this one was fucking mental. Yes, I suppose strictly speaking honey isn't vegan now I think about it, but non-organic veg is, and after all it's the fucking pesticides that are actually killing the bees. But that's fine because pesticides are fucking vegan.Outlaw wrote:Pop Tarts are not vegetarian. I am most put out by this.
It's because some bees are killed in the harvesting of honey. They get squished and stuff
I flirt with veganism occasionally but I just don't have the balls or commitment to go fully vegan. I am frequently wracked with guilt over it. -
Some die but the species would be severely under threat if it wasn't for the honey trade and Bees are kind of extremely important.
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Who cares, honey taste good. -
I dunno, what kind is in Honey Nut Cheerios?
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Outlaw wrote:They get squished and stuff
Exploitation was the reason given to me. A quick search doesn't reveal a general squished concern either.
http://vegetus.org/honey/honey.htm -
'Tis what I have been told by vegan friends during their proselytising, I have never looked further than that. I eat honey, and I'd rather live in ignorance.
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Or not.
"The other option is to kill colonies in the fall, extract and sell most of the honey that would have been consumed during the winter months and start with package bees the following spring. This appears practical since the 60 or so pounds of honey that would have been consumed by an over-wintering colony more than offset the cost of the package of bees. The labor savings seen also support the conclusion that using package bees has advantages. When analyzed more completely, however, the cost savings from selling honey that would have been used in winter may be offset by the reduced success rate of colonies started from packages. Package bee colonies may also have reduced value in pollination and honey production as compared to an overwintered colony (Sanford & Hoopingarrner, 748)."
Silly bee keepers. -
What's wrong with not eating honey? I mean, I like honey, but I can see how it is consistent with the vegan choice. If you're against the enslavement of animals for human benefit, then that includes all animals, not just the tasty fleshy ones. That includes not eating honey, and not wearing silk. If you're gonna be vegan, then that's the only way to do it.
Plus, not all vegans choose not to eat meat for a "love" of animals. My best mate was proper vegan for many years and he just didn't see the point in the animal trade - he thought, as a species, it was beneath us and had large societal and environmental damages. He wasn't losing any sleep over poor lambs being murdered for a tasty dinner, though. And no, he didnt eat honey. -
Bees are heavily threatened by man and are pretty crucial in the production of other crops we rely on and plants we don't. Not eating honey is fine if you are supporting the livlihood of bees in some other way.
It is one of those pick your battles situations. -
It's not wrong to not eat honey, but having an absolute shitfit while eating pesticide-laden vegetables seems ill-judged.
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Agreed, on both posts. But I don't see that as a vegan problem - more, a don't be a dumb douche problem.
Actually, I'm curious - what were the exact circumstances behind this "shitfit"? This is not a trap, I assure you, just wanna know more. -
Outlaw wrote:I am frequently wracked with guilt over it.
Whilst it's true it is hypocritical, it's better to be a non-vegan veggie than a meat eater. -
don't be a dumb vegan problem (as opposed to a smart vegan, not that all vegans are dumb)
It strikes me as one of those things that is taking it too far and missing the whole point. TBH I don't see why vegans can't have milk or eggs either, just that it depends where they are sourced. -
Also worth remembering people are veggie for many different reasons.
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Made lunch for a mate and his new girlfriend. Pizza (no cheese) with a salad. Salad involved honey and mustard dressing.Childintime wrote:Actually, I'm curious - what were the exact circumstances behind this "shitfit"? This is not a trap, I assure you, just wanna know more.
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SpaceGazelle wrote:
Made lunch for a mate and his new girlfriend. Pizza with a salad. Salad involved honey and mustard dressing.Childintime wrote:Actually, I'm curious - what were the exact circumstances behind this "shitfit"? This is not a trap, I assure you, just wanna know more.
Ah, gotcha, thanks.
The thing is - the honey thing is perfectly consistent with the vegan lifestyle, but it's also something that most non-vegans (including myself) would never even think about it. My mate was smart enough to realise this and, if he ate at people's houses, he was nice enough to give advanced warnings on what he could/couldn't eat - he realised it's not something many people come across. Also, things like animal fats used in cooking and animal based oils are things people often forget, as well as products containing milk powder, eggs etc.
If your mates never mentioned honey until it was too late then that seems out if order. -
SpaceGazelle wrote:
Whilst it's true it is hypocritical, it's better to be a non-vegan veggie than a meat eater.Outlaw wrote:I am frequently wracked with guilt over it.
I agree with this but I am also aware I'm a massive fucking hypocrite and I hate myself a fair bit for it. People love to tear vegetarians/vegans apart and try to 'dismantle' their reasoning and mine's an easy one to do. -
Did your mate get invited back? Ever?
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Of course he will, but his new gf can maybe learn a few manners.Liveinadive wrote:Did your mate get invited back? Ever?
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I've often thought how any living thing's rights should be based purely on it's ability to suffer. The trouble with this line of thinking is it's perhaps best in the long run to kill all animals to extinction. Evolution is simply awful.
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The aggregate suffering of all the animals who've ever existed boggles the mind.
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Aye. I think you'll find there's a fair few vegans who believe in letting nature take its course, even if that means that all the cows die etc.
I remember he went to a fair few vegan talks and he hated how most of them would focus on animal suffering, and saving the animals, and being nice to the animals and how closely that lifestyle was tied to things like new-age beliefs and homeopathy and all that shit.
He believed our reliance on meat was damaging the world, he believed that using animals in food production was below us, as a species, and that we were now technologically advanced enough to be able to have a good, balanced diet without the need for animal products. He was hardcore, but consistent, and I respected that.
It's also worth that many people look down on vegetarianism, and veganism, from a perspective of what is "normal". We know eating meat is OK, because we've always done it. But if we were brought up in a world where most people didn't eat meat, then eating another animal would probably seem animalistic and barbaric.
There's been great pleasure in media of presenting vegans as naive hippy types who starve their children and pets through their own dogmatic beliefs, which inconvenience others through their social awkwardness and who are out of touch with the real world. Those people exist, and they are dicks, but that shouldn't be the basis upon which we judge veganism, just like we shouldn't judge modern parenthood according to the stupidity of the anti-vaccine movement. They are a visible and easily recognizable group who become a convenient shorthand for our desire to dismiss their ideas, because it's much easier to do it that way than deal with someone who has really thought consistently about their beliefs and position. Because it is those people who are not only able to shake our preconceptions about those groups, but able to challenge the lifestyles we, ourselves, have. We claim we hate hypocrisy, but actually we crave it - it allows us to dismiss "them" (whoever they are) as idiots. But, how do you defend your lifestyle when you meet someone who is not hypocritical? -
I agree with his principles. I avoid meat as a rule, but I'm not educated or strict enough to go vegan.
I won't lie and say I never eat meat, but I abstain 90% of the time because the industry is fucked. It means very little if you don't go full vegan, and maybe in time I will, but it's a small step towards being conscious of how shit works. I've never met a crazy veggie/vegan and considering I intern with the uni's Sustsinsbility Team, you'd assumeci couldn't swing an aubergine without hitting one.
Anyway, your pal is an impressive perms for being so rigorous. If only more people even thought vaguely similar. I still think the first stop is fucking supermarkets right off, the scale and the waste must be appalling.
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