The Learn Physics Thread - Space and Time
  • Yeah, wasn't making myself clear. It's easier to do the maths for SR, not GR. GR maths is a nightmare, and we had to derive the field equations for my astronomy degree. Glad I did it but never again.
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  • Just popping in to say that this might be the best thread on the forum - SG you are legend, your narrative of physics is brilliant. Keep doing it.
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  • I will, just been a tad busy. I'll post tomorrow.
    "Plus he wore shorts like a total cunt" - Bob
  • Ok. Before we go on we should have a look at the rather absurd relationship between maths and nature, because the fact that the universe operates according to maths is so extraordinary that physicists can barely believe it. It's easy to take this for granted in AI year 2023 so we'll step back in time a little to appreciate this magical relationship.

    Mathematicians have a long history of proving maths stuff just for the sake of it, for the fun of it even. And physicists have a long history of stumbling across those proofs and realising that's the answer to the seemingly unrelated problem they're working on, that nature is somehow doing that maths behind the scenes as it were.

    So the maths people are fooling around with numbers for intellectual kicks and the physics people are looking at natural phenomena in a rather serious manner and realising that the maths people solved it first - that the relationship between the phenomena they were puzzling over for ages had been written down years ago by some mathematician just for fun.

    Mathematicians don't need to look up at things and measure in the same way scientists do. Neptune was discovered by maths before it was observed (although they did need to look at the other planets first). Somebody worked out where it should be using a quill and a bit of paper, they pointed the telescope there and discovered it. Pretty much all of quantum mechanics has been figured out like this. Most people at the time thought this was magical - that you can discover a new planet by scribbling on paper, because it IS. It's just that we take it for granted these days.

    Special and general relativity are about the maths of geometry. Probably no surprise when it comes to space - which by definition is inherently geometrical, but the relationship the Universe has with maths is deeper than that. We'll soon discover that this rather abstract thing we call time is geometrical too! That's how mathematical the Universe is. And the maths behind special relativity was done by the Greeks (among others).

    Before we get into the speed of light being a constant we need to have a look at the maths of Pythagoras and his theorem on right-angled triangles.

    I'm not going to post many links but sometimes it's easier and you should all read this.

    https://www.mathsisfun.com/pythagoras.html

    It's simple and won't take long, and the mathematical proof is nice. And I'll leave everyone to digest that because we're gonna need it to understand special relativity and the relationship between space and time.
    "Plus he wore shorts like a total cunt" - Bob
  • b0r1s
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    You’ve just proved that reverse time travel is real as I’ve just gone back in time about 40 years to my school days!
  • And it's the only maths we'll need to understand time dilation. The older I get the more convinced I am that the universe is made of maths, not described by it.

    All physics is founded on the conservation of energy. We don't know what it is but know it's conserved. We can't practically figure out what the total energy of the universe is but we do know it's a constant, which is the important thing to figure anything out. So what actually is it, this thing that makes the universe work? It's just a number.

    What is an electron? It's a bunch of equations. But it must be a something because it has mass! But E = mc^2 so mass is also just a number. If the universe is just a simulation it would certainly 'explain' quantum mechanics.

    I rather like this guy:

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-the-universe-made-of-math-excerpt/
    "Plus he wore shorts like a total cunt" - Bob
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    What does "made of maths" mean tho? I find it hard to conceive of a universe that couldn't have its laws described mathematically, so inferring things from that apparent fact always seems weird to me.
  • Made of maths in the same way a world in a videogame is. If Mario hits a wall, the wall is just a mathematical object. It's hard to conceive because we think of the Universe as containing actual stuff - matter, so let's write Einstein's most famous equation like he originally did:

    m = E/c^2

    So what is "stuff"? It's just a measure of the amount of energy an object has. If it loses energy it loses mass because mass is just a measure of the total amount of energy the object has (kinetic + potential). Mass is just energy, which is a number. It's not really a solid thing but our spear-throwing brains haven't evolved to think this way. 

    You can describe any particle completely by a bunch of equations and numbers. Any particle is purely a mathematical object in the same way Mario's walls and platforms are. So are space and time. 

    Admittedly this is outside of the realms of science and into philosophy but I thought I'd mention it because we tend not to think in this way.
    "Plus he wore shorts like a total cunt" - Bob
  • We use Pythagoras all the time in layout our gardens and buildings, always amazes me somehow.
  • It's going to amaze you even more in a bit.
    "Plus he wore shorts like a total cunt" - Bob
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    But what would the opposite of "made of maths" be?
  • Made of English.
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  • acemuzzy wrote:
    But what would the opposite of "made of maths" be?

    A place where there are no rules. Sounds silly but it's no sillier than a place where the rules never change. What if pi was suddenly 10? Or Pythagoras didn't hold?

    So I'll ask you, why are the universal constants constant?
    "Plus he wore shorts like a total cunt" - Bob
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    But that's a circular argument. Only the constant ones are constant.
  • What about the vowels?
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  • acemuzzy wrote:
    Only the constant ones are constant.

    But why? Are there constants and laws that are never needed? This will happen btw as the universe slowly experiences a heat death. Pi won't have any meaning then because there won't be any time or space once the universe is all photons (photons don't experience time so they don't experience space either - we'll get to that). Does pi or Pythagoras' theorem still exist in this late universe? I'd argue it does even when it's not used.

    We're getting well off the beaten track here but I like talking about this stuff. Normal service will be resumed soon.
    "Plus he wore shorts like a total cunt" - Bob
  • Isn't it weird how F = m x a mirrors E = m x c^2?
    It suggests mass at lightspeed becomes a photon? Or some kind of energy.
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  • They're all sort of linked but it comes from kinetic energy.

    KE = 1/2 mv ^ 2
    "Plus he wore shorts like a total cunt" - Bob
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    Is it the same m tho, eh?
  • Wait, what happened with the other half of the mass?
    Can't just dissapear can it?
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  • acemuzzy wrote:
    Is it the same m tho, eh?

    The mass changes as the energy changes, because they're the same thing. Pick a ball off the ground and it gains mass because it gains potential energy. Wind a watch up and it gains mass for the same reason.
    "Plus he wore shorts like a total cunt" - Bob
  • Mass is super handy because it gives us a reading of the total energy of an object. And that's all mass is. We'll derive it later.
    "Plus he wore shorts like a total cunt" - Bob
  • This is good vid and it'll come in handy later.

    "Plus he wore shorts like a total cunt" - Bob
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    You are right that physics and philosophy meet. If energy and matter are the same thing then one could say it's how we perceive it and there isn't any matter at all. It's just energy interacting.

    The constants could make one imagine a metaphysical creator who set them in order to create self conscious life. Or they are like that because if they weren't we wouldn't be here to think about it... They just are those values. Or we could be in a simulator.

    If maths can't punch through perception to reveal truths then we are truly blind. Maths does have blind spots..... We could look at that in two ways...either that it doesn't matter.... Or it does.
    Holding the wrong end of the stick since 2009.
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    I have a question after watching that video. If you shone a beam of light into a perfectly mirrored cube or sphere (that reflected all energy), and then turned off the light source, would the inside of the object go dark or remain bright? My thinking is that light would continue to bounce around indefinitely as there is nothing to absorb or dissipate it?
  • The beam of light would be both dead and alive at same time until you let the cat out of the bag
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  • I have a question after watching that video. If you shone a beam of light into a perfectly mirrored cube or sphere (that reflected all energy), and then turned off the light source, would the inside of the object go dark or remain bright? My thinking is that light would continue to bounce around indefinitely as there is nothing to absorb or dissipate it?

    If the mirrors were perfect then yeah. This actually happens all the time with atoms. They absorb light, the electrons get punted up an energy 'orbit' and when they fall back down the light is emitted, so in a way they are perfect. They will absorb a frequency of light and if it's really high the electrons get kicked out of the atom for good and go flying off maybe to find a new partner.

    There is no reason btw that electrons and protons make such stable bedfellows. They're independent things that have found each other and dance so beautifully with each other in this stable way. It's easy to be astonished how this crazy coincidence could've happened but we'd be getting philosophical again. If there are loads of universes with different laws then fortunate coincidences are going to happen in some of them! Or maybe life in universes without atoms could still happen and we'd be talking about something else being fortunate.
    "Plus he wore shorts like a total cunt" - Bob
  • davyK wrote:
    You are right that physics and philosophy meet. If energy and matter are the same thing then one could say it's how we perceive it and there isn't any matter at all. It's just energy interacting.

    We should definitely say that. Energy (and hence matter) are just numbers that interact with each other via equations. The equations are set in stone and it's perhaps not the job of the physicist to think about who wrote them down, but it is interesting to think about - even when the prof is telling you to shut the fuck up and get on with the calculations.
    "Plus he wore shorts like a total cunt" - Bob
  • Ok. So we've bounced around a bit and must now get into it again, but it's important to consider the absurdly mathematical universe because it's going to make what we're about to discover a little more easier to get to grips with - that it's not just a mathematical trick. If the maths says so then it's true, however bizarre it might seem to us. Physical laws, planets, black holes existing etc are discovered by maths these days and experimentally verified later. Mental but true, and so it is with relativity.

    So far we still only have this concept of inertia (and something about Maxwell's equations). The law of inertia is really the explanation of this business of coins dropping at your feet on a smooth boat ride - that the laws of physics are the same in all non-accelerating frames. There is no difference between moving at constant speed and being 'still'.

    There are only two frames in physics and we'll give them their formal names so everyone understands the lingo.


    INERTIAL FRAMES

    This is a non-accelerating frame and all inertial frames are EQUAL. That is, there are no science experiments that distinguish one inertial frame from another, It doesn't matter what relative speed you're moving at, the coin still drops at your feet.

    NON-INERTIAL FRAMES

    This is an accelerating frame and they aren't all the same. Your science equipment is sliding all over the place and the faster you accelerate the faster sliding you see.


    We'll only need Inertial frames right now. Now the idea that all inertial frames are the same hasn't been proved yet. Inertia hints they are but Newton thinks that god can tell you have an absolute position and velocity according to some divine coordinate scheme. But Einstein is convinced this is unnecessary but there's a problem, and that's Maxwell's equations and the discovery of electromagnetism (light). Now he has to incorporate this phenomena into his view of motion.

    It's a very strange thing (as discussed) that new truths come from manipulating equations, but this is exactly what happened when Maxwell decided to combine the equations of magnetism with the equations of electricity. They are so similar they share similar terms and you can combine them with a bit of algebra using the equals sign. This was done by Maxwell just for fun but the extraordinary thing is that when you do, this unexpected constant just pops out, and it's a speed. This has never happened before in physics. There are other universal constants like pi but you have to measure them. What does it mean?

    Maxwell knew it meant something, and that something was to obvs to do with electricity and magnetism. Not only that but he had a value for this constant because he knew (by experiment) all the values of the other terms in the equation.

    The equation btw looks like this:

    main-qimg-858d3393bb7879ebee7725a7a8fb8d90

    Uo and Eo are to do electricity and magnetism respectively and we needn't get into it ( U is the electrical permittivity and E is the magnetic permeability of a vacuum if you want to look it up) but they are constants that can be measured by experiment. They have a certain value and therefore c can be calculated even if nobody was quite sure what c was - but it was a constant because the other two terms are!

    Maxwell suspected it was to do with light. Partly because everyone had wondered about light's nature for centuries and also that they knew c was very fast. You see lightning before thunder and back then the speed of sound was considered very fast! They actually knew light must be really really fast and the speed of c that was calculated by Maxwell was 300,000 km per second, so it seemed it might be a plausible candidate.

    So how do you deal with a constant that pops up like this that has a value? A speed relative to what? The obvious answer was that it's the speed relative to the light source. So if I'm driving towards you with a torch pointed at you, I see the light as going at c, but you see the light going at c plus the velocity of the car. We are so used to speeds stacking that this makes sense to us.

    But there's a problem. Maths people have all sorts of tools in the box, calculus being one of them -  a thing that Newton co-discovered btw. They looked at these U and E terms and played around with the equation and discovered (again by only using maths) that the speed c was independent of the speed of the source of the light! 

    This seemed odd but the speed of sound is the same. If you fly past mach one then you overtake the shock wave because you're going faster than it. The shock wave is actually caused because the air particles can't get out of the way fast enough as the plane pushes on them. And if light is a wave (that Maxwell's equations hinted that it was), then it needs a medium to travel in doesn't it? Water and sound do, so why not this?

    Maybe absolute space is this medium? And maybe it's not quite so invisible after all! So the idea is that light travels through this absolute space stuff at c, just like sound moves at a constant speed through air.

    This could prove Einstein wrong, because just like the jet pilot and air, a person moving at a speed relative to absolute space need only measure the speed of the beam coming from their torch. If it's less than c they're truly moving like Newton said - and you can measure your true speed according to this constant. If they measure it at c they can be said to be at rest with respect to this absolute space stuff.

    We'll see how Einstein proved this wrong next time. I was hoping to get to this is in this post but I never really know what I'm going to say when I sit in front of the laptop, It always takes longer.
    "Plus he wore shorts like a total cunt" - Bob
  • more good stuff. just so i check i'm understanding what you're saying right about sound being a constant too...
    we're both on a train, you're in the middle and i'm towards the front. the train is travelling at 1000mph.
    you throw a tennis ball to me, at let's say 20mph. i catch it normally cos it's relatively just at 20mph.
    you throw another ball out the window with a forward velocity of 20mph, it hits someone standing by the train track and kills them cos it hits with 1020mph force?
    when you throw the ball to me, you make a loud grunt, but i'll never hear it cos we're moving faster than sound and i'm in front of you on the train.
    another person standing by the side of the track does hear your grunt.

    are they all 'correct'?
    "Like i said, context is missing."
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