The RTS Genre Thread - The Bear and Badger

Knight

Anyone else still a fan or is it just me?

Most of my teenage years were spent playing Ensemble Studios' 'Age of' games but obviously they're gone now. I've been playing and watching Starcraft 2 since it was released and the soon to be released expansion pack is preodered. I actually spend more time watching other people playing SC2 in 'esports' than I do playing it myself nowadays. Mainly because it's an incredibly stressful and difficult game and watching super human Koreans with an apm of 250+ play is more relaxing. I must be getting old. But I do still love a 1v1 in a competitive RTS game when in the right mood. There's nothing quite like out thinking and out executing your opponent, forcing them to type 'gg' (good game) before leaving the battlefield defeated.

The genre as a whole seems to be struggling though. Nothing truly new ever comes out, they're all sequels (although what's new there?). The control interface of the traditional RTS needs a mouse and keyboard, which causes problems when it's increasingly rare to find PC only games. And frankly I wonder if the traditional RTS is just too hard for the modern gamer. SC2 requires lots of mechanical ability, you have to do lots of stuff in a short period of time. And it demands good strategic and tactical decision making, it makes you think. The fighting game afficionados on here say a good fighting game is like high speed chess and I suspect the analogy holds even truer for a good RTS game. Anyway, in a world of Modern Warfare ADD dumbed down online gaming is there a place for high speed chess?

So, does anyone here play SC2? Or watch it played? Who's even touched an RTS since Company of Heroes? (for which there is a sequel on the way apparently). Is there a future for the genre?

Mod74

I still play them, but for me there's a huge difference between the ones I like (single player like Red Alert or Company of Heroes) and the pitched battle finely honed build order dexterity of things like [multiplayer] StarCraft.

There's been some casualties but I think there's still a market there. Sega have been doing very nicely with the Total War series, they must have been, they just paid 20 odd million to pick up Relic and Company of Heroes/Warhammer.

fullspectrum

I highly appreciate Starcraft for its multiplayer design, but it's not something I'd ever dedicate time to learning to play.

Jacuzzi_Jackson

Used to play them a fair bit but i dont have a PC set up at home that i could game on right now. I imagine i'll play the odd one a little bit once i have the means again but i'll not seriously play them, they devour time and i have not much spare.

Matt_82

I would like more of them on consoles. Â I would play more of them but I'll never have a PC good enough.

Tempy

I've ranted and raved about Sins of a Solar Empire: Rebellion elsewhere.

As a genre, I miss it, especially the simplicity of Age of Empires 2.

Moto70

I was a fan of them, not particularly good at them though!

I only really liked the Age of Empires type ones though over those that were more warfare based though I did enjoy Company of Heroes.

For me the only way this genre would prosper would be if they did dumb down the combat or vs side and make it more about the building side, you've only got to look at Minecraft to see that there is a massive market for co-op building/surviving games, the controls shouldn't be too big a problem we all manage with joypads for every console game we've played but these machines do have USB's on them so hooking up a keyboard and mouse shouldn't be a big deal. I presume that the reason we haven't seen more of it is down to licensing but with this in mind if there was to be an official controller for this genre, a sort of hybrid thumbstick/keyboard (I like be able to move slowly) with a mouse I'd buy it day one.

Tempy

The Anno series is almost exclusively about building and trading. Combat is very much an afterthought, although it then becomes an Empire sim rather than an RTS really.

mistercrayon

Does pikmin count? I'll get that I think.

WorKid

Dune 2 remains the highlight for me.

WorKid

I've spent plenty of time on various flavours of Settlers too.

Vastik

I love Starcraft but I just don't really enjoy sitting in front of a computer to play games these days, so Starcraft 2 remains unfinished while its multiplayer is just too taxing properly get into...

Bollockoff

Like Moto i'm a fan but a bit shit in execution. Particulary in micro-management which my brain simply can't manage. Been a TW enthusiast since the first Shogun (which I still own the big cumbersome PC box for) but the first RTS I got into was classic C&C, on the Sega Saturn ironically.

Did Halo Wars not do a good job of a console RTS? I remember it getting good reviews. And being annoyed it wouldn't be ported to PC.

Yossarian

Bollockoff wrote:

Did Halo Wars not do a good job of a console RTS? I remember it getting good reviews. And being annoyed it wouldn't be ported to PC.

So good Ensemble promptly went bust after making it. This was my only experience of RTS games, it was enough to know that the genre ain't for me. I'm more of a twitch fan than a strategy one.

Nexx

I like the idea of RTS games and do enjoy watching the occasional game of Starcraft (in between watching League of Legends matches). In theory they seem like the kind of games that I should be good at but in practice it turns out that I have horrible micro-management skills. I much prefer games that rely on effective macro management such as managing resource collection, base building, army composition etc (and yes, I know Starcraft has these elements too). But these games don't tend to be the ones with strong competitive multiplayer followings.

I might give Startcraft another go with the expansion coming out but I'm probably getting into it too late to get to any kind of reasonable level.

Knight

You're not. The league system (like Reach's arena but good) means you can always play other players around your level and steadily improve. My micro is abysmal too, but if you can make more stuff than your opponent (macro) that doesn't matter for a good while (up till about Platinum, which is the 4th league after bronze, silver and gold).

Watching videos like these http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPW1oxf-pY2z_TlIpqbP5QU_R940oevX9 is always useful too.

I kind of want to like LoL, after all it's so popular it must be somewhat decent to watch, but I just don't get it. Need to play it a bit I think.

Jacuzzi_Jackson

Tempy wrote:

I've ranted and raved about Sins of a Solar Empire: Rebellion elsewhere.

I played this for a while. I was shit at it but really enjoyed it. Liked being able to zoom all the way in to view mini battles and them zoom out to galactic proportions to see the over arching game. It was slightly frustrating how you could only travel along pre-determned space motorways from planet to planet, made space seem oddly claustraphobic but over all it was great.

Bollockoff

Knight wrote:

I kind of want to like LoL, after all it's so popular it must be somewhat decent to watch, but I just don't get it. Need to play it a bit I think.

It has a huge learning wall to get over but once that's done it's clear sailing. Alot of it is much like getting better at a fighting game in learning the capabilities and exploits of your favoured champions and who to watch out for.

Blocks100

Much in the same way that a lot of FPS's have RPG elements grafted onto them nowadays, I think the only way for RTS's to re-invent themselves so they appeal to the modern gamer is to meld somehow into FPS's as well. Â

Whatever happened to the dream of commanding real virtual soldiers from your orbitingÂ battle-station? Â Or zapping down from your lofty RTS viewpoint to commandeerÂ a grunt and survey the battlefield through his eyes?

I'm sure we were promised this at some point.

Tempy

Jacuzzi_Jackson wrote:

Tempy wrote:

I've ranted and raved about Sins of a Solar Empire: Rebellion elsewhere.

I played this for a while. I was shit at it but really enjoyed it. Liked being able to zoom all the way in to view mini battles and them zoom out to galactic proportions to see the over arching game. It was slightly frustrating how you could only travel along pre-determned space motorways from planet to planet, made space seem oddly claustraphobic but over all it was great.

That was my favourite bit, as it allowed for choke points, and baiting your opponent to over extend and all that. If it was just free form a lot of the strategy would be lost, and I wouldn't be able to stick two starbases at a major crossroads.

Moto70

Blocks100 wrote:

Much in the same way that a lot of FPS's have RPG elements grafted onto them nowadays, I think the only way for RTS's to re-invent themselves so they appeal to the modern gamer is to meld somehow into FPS's as well. Â Whatever happened to the dream of commanding real virtual soldiers from your orbitingÂ battle-station? Â Or zapping down from your lofty RTS viewpoint to commandeerÂ a grunt and survey the battlefield through his eyes? I'm sure we were promised this at some point.

Not quite the same but Company of Heroes got in quite close with the viewpoint from what I remember, I think the only thing that could 'reinvent' the RTS would be to copy Minecraft as it is after almost a RTS without the controlling other people bit. Everything is there, chopping wood, making shelter & food, defending yourself and so on.

For me the only way RTS can truly succeed in the console world is to have the population not controlled by a single person but instead to have the population each controlling a single person. This could be what the next gen is made for...

Tempy

Man have you tried playing an objective game on consoles? LikeÂ herdingÂ cats. I do not want a 13 year old in charge of my crystal production in case he has to go for dinner when I need extra crystal to build elite units.

Mod74

Blocks100 wrote:

Whatever happened to the dream of commanding real virtual soldiers from your orbitingÂ battle-station? Â Or zapping down from your lofty RTS viewpoint to commandeerÂ a grunt and survey the battlefield through his eyes? I'm sure we were promised this at some point.

Carrier Command Gaea Mission

(it's awful btw)

Nexx

Moto70 wrote:

For me the only way RTS can truly succeed in the console world is to have the population not controlled by a single person but instead to have the population each controlling a single person. This could be what the next gen is made for...

Tempy

Haha. Yeah. MMOFPS = / = RTS.

Moto70

Tempy wrote:

Man have you tried playing an objective game on consoles? LikeÂ herdingÂ cats. I do not want a 13 year old in charge of my crystal production in case he has to go for dinner when I need extra crystal to build elite units.

This is what will make 'BearandBadgerville' such a wonderful town to visit because little Johnny won't be part of it. Anybody that needs to be fuelled by anything other than artificial light and alcohol won't be in charge of producing anything more taxing than moving stuff!!!

I'd love to play something like this and I'm sure we could build up quite a little community with enough of us playing, set this in a big enough world with plenty of options* and I'm sure the publishers of this would basically be printing their own money.

* The game could monitor your clan/town's activities and have your civ/dev tree branch in certain ways, for instance we could end up becoming quite adept in the air through vehicles/manufacturing and the vast deposits of 'gravitirium' that our city is sat on could become almost useless to us but like gold dust for another clan/town. You could go on to become good traders, run the risk of attack or find that nobody within a logistical distance has any use so you have to abandon your once prosperous oasis in search of other areas that have vast kerosine lakes, again this would present other dangers such as is the area already occupied, do you join forces, trade or attack? Again you could find that your air superiority becomes effective for other clans that need stuff/people transporting so you could exchange for a vast pipeline running from the natural kerosine lakes to your existing town removing any need to relocate but requiring the 'employment' of other people to keep the pipeline safe...

Talking of pipelines this is obviously a pipe dream, I want a MMO but I want it more in the style of something not so WoW, you can but wish! There must be a way of taking the best of both worlds?!?

Yossarian

Isn't that model what, what was it? Eve Online perhaps? Going for?

Edit: MMOFPSRTS.

Tempy

Well it basically works in EVE as various articles have proved, but there is also a high bar of entry, which means people are more likely to respect the universe as they have invested greatly in the game already. That's the hook that you need, but it also makes it an absolute shit to get into.

Moto70

That reminds me, I have the entire AoE on my PC, I may have to fire it up...

Mod74

Yossarian wrote:

Isn't that model what, what was it? Eve Online perhaps? Going for? Edit: MMOFPSRTS.

Eve/Dust 514

See also MAG. And PlanetSide 2.

Moto70

Yossarian wrote:

Isn't that model what, what was it? Eve Online perhaps? Going for? Edit: MMOFPSRTS.

Tempy wrote:

Well it basically works in EVE as various articles have proved, but there is also a high bar of entry, which means people are more likely to respect the universe as they have invested greatly in the game already. That's the hook that you need, but it also makes it an absolute shit to get into.

I've got a mate in an EVE clan who invited me for a go during that free two week trial thing. It wasn't my thing, I want something as compelling as AoE with the ease of acquiring/nurturing/growing as Minecraft.

What was funny was them guiding me towards their Space Station (fucking impressive space graphics!) and me being attacked on the way, I only just got away by jumping through a portal/wormhole (whatever it's called) but upon telling them they launched an armada that was something to behold and killed the pirates.

I think I'm after something without the complexity of EVE/WoW etc and certainly something that wouldn't see your whole town wiped out but Team Teenage Fuckwits, I suppose it's becoming quite clear that what I want isn't possible! I'll just stick with wanting Minecraft 2 with a few of the good bits of the RTS genre thrown in...

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