Last of Us needs to go down the (slightly) less travelled road and have the man die, if it must kill anyone that is.

I'm sure emotions in games are held by the lack of protagonists that don't entirely suck because they are borderline angels/devils.

I don't want a 'dark, brooding hero with a mysterious past' which almost always ends up being a conviction that is due to his short sighted superiors (Marcus) which he then rights by, that's correct, killing all and sundry (Kratos).

Flawed, lockable characters pushed to make hard choices are always a better sell than avatars of good.

Also having enemies with motives that are more befitting a real villain than you're typical pantomime schtick really helps. A relentless alien invasion can be good every so often but why not add a reason for the brutality, like the Cylons?

Games, due to their length and frequent division into acts or chapters could learn a lot from a decent TV show or two, far more than they could from films, of which they've only really borrowed spectacle.

Veering slightly off topic here but I basically want more game protagonists to be like Saul Tigh or Walter White. If I can't invest in your gurning man babby hero then I simply won't invest in your game, no matter what 'drama' you chuck at me.

Allowing Shepherd to be innately good for the universe on a whole but also harbour xenophobic tendencies, to clock a cocky journalist in the chops, to essentially euthanise more than one civilisation, was a big boon to Mass Effect.

Having mulled it over I think the distinction between 'games make us feel emotions anyway' and what certain developers are trying to achieve is to do with the intent of the artist. But I think people like Cage have picked up bad habits from Hollywood, effectively trying to tell the audience exactly what they are supposed to feel at any time. Compare that to a painting or a piece of music that has an ambiguity to the artist's intent and can conjure up very different emotions in different people.

@Tempy I agree with what you're saying but have to wonder if decent characterization can be achieved outside of cut-scenes. Whereas I'm not fundamentally opposed to narrative in games I would argue that anything of emotional interested generated by it has been created by a story attached to a game rather than by the game itself. What's interesting about Ico is that the emotional pull is generated by actually playing the game, whereas the cut-scenes give you the small amount of context required to fill in the blanks yourself.

Mouldywarp wrote:

@Tempy I agree with what you're saying but have to wonder if decent characterization can be achieved outside of cut-scenes. Whereas I'm not fundamentally opposed to narrative in games I would argue that anything of emotional interested generated by it has been created by a story attached to a game rather than by the game itself. What's interesting about Ico is that the emotional pull is generated by actually playing the game, whereas the cut-scenes give you the small amount of context required to fill in the blanks yourself.

Well those are two different things entirely. Characterisation can be built with decent dialogue and set pieces. Uncharted 2 has a great bit where you have to help a wounded guy hobble through a big scripted ambush sequence. It cements that Nate is a 'good guy' and there is also a bit later on when you walk around a village and he comments on various stuff. That is all very nicely done even if Nate is a little 2D (he's a rambunctious thief but you never really feel he is doing anything inherently bad).

Feel through play is achieved by tone and consequence. I've never played ICO and I have no means to play it, but I played SoTC and it implies a lot before the story ever reveals itself. Colossi rarely attack you except out of defence, your character gets darker, a new bird appears for each beast slain and all that jazz. It also made Agro a brilliant narrative mechanic by removing total control of his actions from you, that made certain events later on all the more arresting because he already felt like thing rather than a bullet point HORSE RIDING ACTION game mechanic on the box.

Interestingly SotC managed to get a decent amount of mise-en-scene in its game and actually get it recognised. Another reason that games and films are poor analogues is that you have control of the camera for the majority of the time. It is difficult to deliver intent when you the person you are showing your hand crafted environment is too busy smashing all the pots and crates for coins to notice the little details.

Certainly, I think videogames past were better at creating endearing totems. I look at this Sony Smash Bros clone and it's a punnet of conceptually tired mush.

Then again, you do still get the occasional videogame object that does attract a broader social worth, usually via humour - the Companion Cube, Resi 4's Merchant, Solaire. Possibly says more about web communities than much else, but does suggest that irreverence is next to godliness re: getting people to care about your videogame denizenry, perhaps ultimately because the core mechanical/existential conditions of videogame spaces consistently confound anything else via their shorthands and accepted nonsenses.*

In very basic sense - being able to die and re-do fundamentally corrupts the sense of an actor's preciousness, for instance. And there's only so many ways you can write a scenario that accommodates that rule.

Humour in games could do with being a great deal better, I said as much elsewhere yesterday. The problem is that games try too hard and then mess it up, or they are aiming to appease the masses that found The Merchant funny and missing the point entirely.

Mouldywarp wrote:

@Tempy I agree with what you're saying but have to wonder if decent characterization can be achieved outside of cut-scenes.

Yes it can.

We ascribe a very strong identity to Gordon Freeman, even though he never speaks, and we only ever see him on the box art.

It's all done entirely in game too.

dynamiteReady wrote:

Mouldywarp wrote:

@Tempy I agree with what you're saying but have to wonder if decent characterization can be achieved outside of cut-scenes.

Yes it can. We ascribe a very strong identity to Gordon Freeman, even though he never speaks, and we only ever see him on the box art. It's all done entirely in game too.

...however, my Gordon Freeman is probably very different to your Gordon Freeman.

regards

g.man

We already have some very important ingredients, see the Wot I Have Drawn thread.

Brooks wrote:

In very basic sense - being able to die and re-do fundamentally corrupts the sense of an actor's preciousness, for instance. And there's only so many ways you can write a scenario that accommodates that rule.

Maybe that example we saw elsewhere here where a generational mechanic was used to facilitate trying again would allow for a sense of nostalgia - provided achievements are archived.

That little post level effect in Super Meat Boy has echoes of that idea.

Brooks wrote:

Have decided the most reliable way to do humour in games is to play materially odd content very straight. That shouldn't preclude efficiency though, so MGS can get tae.

Metal Slug always raised a smile with me despite the murderous coin munching setup.

Re Ico - that simple act of hand holding has done more for the cause of imparting feeling than anything.

Dawns on me I may be the ultimate middle-brow videogame consumer - keen on wild fancy within formats I'm already very comfortable with.

In a straight toss-up between a vs-fighter with a really cool roster and sensible mechanics and one of Increpare's flights of total conceptual novelty it's gonna be the former every damn time.

Your ideal game is hampered by the same shit that strung up something like Inception. In games, you can do fucking anything, so why do we just keep playing war?

Also the ability to stick any character in whatever world provides limitless avenues for creativity. Gimme a Cerebus style romp where i'm a Anthromorphosized Aardvark Barbarian in a straighter world. He can be buds with Fightin' Hippo.

Cerebus is a remarkably apposite shout, actually. Maybe go easy on rampant misogyny, but otherwise. (Though technically, the series total is hardly a romp.)

Also I think if the 'war' bit is made subordinate to the 'explore' bit you're always onto more of a winner, at least for solo modes. Metroid has really done a number on my priorities over the ages.

Brooks wrote:

Cerebus is a remarkably apposite shout, actually. Maybe go easy on rampant misogyny, but otherwise. (Though technically, the series total is hardly a romp.)

Also I think if the 'war' bit is made subordinate to the 'explore' bit you're always onto more of a winner, at least for solo modes. Metroid has really done a number on my priorities over the ages.

Exploring and finding new and interesting vistas nearly always fills me with more 'emotion' than killing my thousandth goon.

Aye, Cerebus isn't a romp but you see where I was coming from.

davyK wrote:

a rhythm action shmup that did more than Rez did would be highly compulsive to me...

How about that Kinect based sequel thing? 
Did that not do it for you?

Another fucking page turn! This is so weird...

I saw it going for a tenner, used, at a local Gamestation. I should have picked it up there and then. : |

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_of_Eden

Edit - Site suggestion... Can we not get rid of the gif based smileys? Does everyone like them? Or can we get a custom set in? :]