Tempy wrote:

Tourney play is cool. As is watching videos of sandbox style games, to see what nonsense people come up with. Like Rouj I like watching people do what I'd never, ever do. Also Roguelikes can be good to watch, either for sheer skill envy, or to watch them do silly restrictions etc. Also Dota. Dota. Dota. Besiege is my favourite watch and giggle at the minute, but Kerbal Space Program is also fun too.

Dark Soldier wrote:

Isaac: Rebirth is fantastic to watch. CobaltStreak is a bit of a cock but by fuck does he dominate that game. Watching him has helped me improve my own game, so yay.

Oh yeah, at first I was of the opinion that "watch other people play games? I have no interest", but then the stuff about speed runs and fightman reminded me that I can appreciate watching others play if it's a game/genre I like (e.g. I have no interest in starcraft or MOBAs, so the korean and general e-sports obsessions leave me a bit bemused) - although there's obviously far more fun to be had when those people are your mates and you're all round someone's gaff toking and playing winner-stays-on.

But the above posts reminded me that Trials, and even way, way back in the day on Elastomania, one of my favourite activities was watching the replays of the top leaderboard runs to see how they did it, learn skills and tricks etc. and to just generally be amazed by a perfect run.

So, yeah, I guess watching other people play games is something I'm more interested in than I figured - but specifically the best of the best (or friends I know) rather than general Twitch/live-streaming.

Esports ugh. Yea I'm smug about not watching them when there's fucking esports bars opening up in shoreditch.

I watched some high level players for a few games to learn tactics and technique, but generally no.

1CC shmup runs can be instructional. Getting past level 3 of Mushi Futari for example.

You can even download them via XBL. Facilities for recording and watching runs are part of a great many modern shmups.

I've played civ a few times whilst streaming a civ play through. It's a good way to learn about civ's you're not playing as whilst picking up on some details of other civs. I did similar with minecraft.

I like old replays, as it saves the despair of bothering yourself.

I like lets plays just to get an idea of a game I am unlikely to pick up at launch or even within a year of release.

I like watching people play, at homes or on arcades.

I've never liked to just watch but if people want to watch me go about my business I'm cool with that. Just be aware I usually play solo.

Gonna be a very clear split in this thread, and I think it's largely attitude based but there's also a generational thing in there too I suspect. Interesting to see other people's thoughts who do partake though, more interesting than finding out why people don't, which is usually all very similar reasoning.

"Why would I wach when I could play" makes some sense, but the reason I started browsing Dota and Hearthstone streams was because (especially for Dota) they're games with lots of stuff to learn, and watching someone who knows their shit play is very enjoyable as I'd be learning new stuff, and (again, Dota) also appreciating the raw skill they were displaying. In fact, since quitting the dotes in favour of the much less demanding Smite, I've enjoyed watching one or two games of it a fortnight just to keep abreast of it. It's not like I'm choosing to do it at the expense of something else, it's the closest thing I've got to TV to veg out to .

Tempy, I think even the most simple looking of games can have quirks only exposed through learning from someone else. Skills can be learned across the broad range of genres and mechanics.

e.g. Mario speedruns, above the clouds etc, most people didn't find those for themselves- back in the day, how did you find out? Not through fucking youtube, I can bet that much.

The breath of knowledge around this area now has inspired new generations to expose further quirks never found in the same games before and disseminate quicker than Gamesmaster mag or the playground ever could. I'm pretty sure, without a hookup to some kind of matrix affair it's a monumental task to now uncover when and by whom each quirk was exposed.

Wholeheartedly agree.

In the early WoW days, we learned by having all the heads of a guild in one room, one, two, three, four, five, six, SIX 800-1000W PCs all going batshit on the first 50meg line available.

I'd never pick up the intricacies of such alone. Each of us doing our own research and applying it in game.

Well just using Dota s an example... It is a game with 5 people often doing 5 different things at the same time, vs another 5, reading is all well and good and definitely helps for hard stats etc, but seeing stuff in practice is totally different.

Watching the way someone use blink in Starcraft to continue an attack whilst avoiding as much damage as possible is something you can read about and understand, but watching it done gives you a better understanding of the nuances in timing and positioning.

It's along the same lines as watching a complicated play or brilliant rally in a sport. You can write it however you want, but you'll be losing something by not seeing it.

Tempy wrote:

watching someone who knows their shit play is very enjoyable as I'd be learning new stuff/quote]

I like learning through playing, in L4D when more experienced players came down to my level and shared their knowledge. I enjoy those interactions.

I very rarely play multiplayer games though, and with single player I explore every inch of the level in ridiculous detail so I find a lot of stuff myself. It probably takes me twice as long to complete a game and most people would find my way dull I guess.

I'm not denying learning through playing is a thing, of course it is. I'm mainly talking specifically about  games that I feel require effort beyond just playing due to the way the patch to patch metas change fundamentals of the game. I never watched a minute of L4D play before starting to play it with Bollo, and he linked me some stuff I'd never seen in 50+ hours of play, which was nice but didn't change anything. 

Not having a grasp of how the top players in Dota are informing the play of tiers below them can (not does) leave you remiss if you come up against a team comp you don't understand because like me, you can't take the stats and numbers from patch notes and transfer them into in game scenarios. But, If i've watched a few hours of SingSing or Merlini play and listened to them detail the reasons why they're buying certain items or skilling in a specific way, or even who they're picking in relation to other player's picks I can then see before me, in all of Valve's glory, those tenuous concepts solidified into actual concrete things I understand, like damage done, kill secured, etc.

Of course if you're just popping on a multiplayer game for a giggle, then you wouldn't care. But even though I was never into competitive play in Dota, I still wanted to win at least a few games. Who wants to play 20 games over a week, each at 45 minutes, and have each of them be a loss? Watching better players took away large parts of the errata that I didn't understand. My friend who did understand the way all the numbers interacted simply used them to confirm or deny suspicions he had, as game engines can be capricious things.

Ideally you want to watch the video with commentary, because it's no use saying:

"ok so it's the 26th minute of the game, the situation is currently like this, the flow of the creep lanes is X,Y,Z, Roshan has not been done, ancients on Radiant side are stacked, Dire are not, these towers are down, each hero has been performing <as so> and they have <these items> that they have built <in this order>. This <significant event> has just happened which means all 10 players are in <these positions>, for <these reasons> and that leads to an encounter under Radiants mid tower where the Death Profit for Dire moves out of position because if you can conceptualise the lines of sight of the players on each team you'll see she has coverage from her team, but is unaware of the Tidehunter hiding in the trees because they haven't warded it, but the enemy team can see all of her allies because of the ward that is right there between them, and then she is initiated on by <this hero> and so her team try and come to the rescue but the Tidehunter has a blink dagger and he jumps in to stop the opposing team with a Ravage, followed up with anchor smash as they come down which is important because in this patch Anchor Smash has been buffed to <these stats> which is why he hasn't bought <this item> as his natural protection is higher now, and in the split second he jumped Death Prophet used her ult meaning that the supports on Tidehunter's team needed to reposition because they were too close and that means they take more damage per click, and then her Allied Slark who wasn't bunched with the rest of his team when Tidehunter blinked used leap to land on the Tidehunter's Allied Axe and tether him but the Axe's counter helix proc'd doing damage and and and and..."

And I haven't even got into the actual fight, or the subsequent chase that will ensue, or the fallout of that fight, how that effects the overall flow of the game, or the fact that there are over 100 heroes in dota, and something like 200 items meaning that the permutations are huge.

Plus no one is out there writing up these events. People write general guides for characters and how to play them in a few ways, but the endless amounts of caveats you'd need for context mean that you might as well just watch someone play that hero for a few games, see what they build against certain heroes, or wat they build to accommodate certain play styles such as pure damage or crit heavy, tanky or fast support etc. Or for the full context from an omniscient view Dota's in-game replay function, or if it's a streamer, his perspective. They're all far more useful than attempting a write up, which to make sense would need to be exhaustive to the point of redundancy.

I certainly agree that either way has its flaws, and a mix (if people were doing it) would be best, but because Dota is a game where positioning, map awareness and vision are largely key to how its fights turn out, seeing those aspects in motion is more useful than reading vague approximations of where players are stood. 

Equally, it's often tough to get a handle on stat interactions without having the cause and effect written and explained, though there are rarely big enough wildcard events like players unexpectedly melting that you would need to see it all written down, and seeing a Drow Ranger orb-walking during combat is again more effective than simply knowing the raw numbers she's outputting.

Outlaw wrote:

It's not smugness, I genuinely don't see the appeal. Especially when for example Dan says he has limited time so doesn't play any more, just watches. He's not talking about enjoying watching superior players in addition to still enjoying playing himself, he's talking about replacing it. That's what I don't get.

Some people watch soaps. They're not getting better at soaps, they're not finding out if one is worth buying, they're just actually watching a soap. Or this thing on Saturday where there are some people on stage... ON TV. Some people watch sports. It's the same thing every week but different T shirts.

All of my games watching is at times where I couldn't be holding a pad and my attention is on something else. It's up there with music videos or How Is It Made as TV that can be entertaining in that second that you look up without relying on knowing what happened 30 minutes earlier.

It's five-a-side football for neets.

Aye. I much prefer watching Starcraft. Dem dudes is mad clever.