Japan's fall from grace - The Bear and Badger

stonechalice

It's interesting when you think about the quality of the actual gameplay of the titles in that list. All the western titles are pretty ropey gameplay wise - particularly GTA and TLoU - sluggish and clunky. I know which titles I'd rather play for fun, and they're all the japanese ones.

[Deleted User]

That's an entirely pointless metric though innit.

About as pointless as saying Japanese games are "the best", yeah.

Edit: Disagree that Rayman had anything but great Gameplay.
"Fun" is as objective as "best". I had a shit ton of fun on GTAV, Fire Emblem on the other hand I would find a total snooze-fest.

Tempy

Last page, Tempy wrote:

Best is such a nebulous term tho.

stonechalice wrote:

It's interesting when you think about the quality of the actual gameplay of the titles in that list. All the western titles are pretty ropey gameplay wise - particularly GTA and TLoU - sluggish and clunky. I know which titles I'd rather play for fun, and they're all the japanese ones.

Different power fantasies - GTA and TLoU need to be sluggish for that 'real man really hitting people' feel, plus to concrete that feel they have to implement lots of euphoria physics systems and little generated things that make it feel 'real' and 'seamless' - certainly a problem that Dark Souls sidesteps by having a very mechanical restricted combat system that's very stripped back because it isn't trying to be like HBO or whatever.

Still think TLoU works very well when it works, but with all those extra factors adding in there's always a higher chance that something will fuck up. Best brick to the teeth simulator 2013 for sure though.

[Deleted User]

I would also agree with the something or other you said about it not really mattering if Japanese games are AAA or not.

Over the industry there has grown an absolute obsession with record breaking profit. Things don't have to earn $1quardobillterrflophypermegaousand to be a success. If they turn a decent profit then that is what matters.

I_R

Feels to me like the Japanese were ahead in the early (cartridge) days because they were set up professionally. Corporations that made other things already and had the know how and resources to carry out what are pretty large collaborative projects while Western devs were either coming from the bedroom coder days on the Spectrum and C64 or were medium sized developers that had made bank in those days but struggled to make the transition to bigger projects.

The West caught up on running big developers, had an obvious advantage in tailoring narrative led games to their customers in the US and Europe and seem more likely to ruthlessly move development to where the tax breaks are. That's on top of what's already been said about PC leading the way last gen.

Arguing about what's best seems pretty pointless and will only be personal preference. The low sales of the Wii-U will almost certainly cripple sales of Japanese software this gen. Not to say nothing will sell, but games that shift tens of millions of units will be very rare.

davyK

I don't use the J word - it is a bit of a throwback to less enlightened times.. I usually put JPN.

I prefer the abstract and while the East is generally better at that the West can do it too. FPS games, "story" driven roam-arounds and the like could disappear tomorrow and I wouldn't notice apart from shelf space in gamestores being a bit more varied - or dare I say it - interesting?.

2D shooters were invented in Japan and that genre is still the preserve of that part of the world.

stonechalice

Liveinadive wrote:

Edit: Disagree that Rayman had anything but great Gameplay. "Fun" is as objective as "best". I had a shit ton of fun on GTAV, Fire Emblem on the other hand I would find a total snooze-fest.

Oh fuck yeah I must have glazed over Rayman on the list! The last game was fucking awesome, but where did it get it's inspiration from? I suppose what I mean is, in terms of replay value and just gratifying, tactile reward from just pressing buttons and seeing stuff happen on screen, the japanese titles win.

TLoU is as dull as ditchwater upon a second play through. It was a brilliant experience, but putting it on for a quick blast is a no no, and it's certainly not what I would consider 'fun' to play

Same with GTAV. It's just not as accessible as it should be. The controls are dreadful. Putting the next gen version on the other night really emphasised that, whereas I could pop Mario on no matter what and get enjoyment out of it.

Western titles require so much more investment generally.

[Deleted User]

I do wonder how much of it was the West catching up/ taking over while Japan have actually just stagnated slightly.
Obviously there are variations in there, Square have been rocky while a few years ago Nintendo where rolling in cash.

One thing that does seem to have been started by Western developers and not really picked up on by Japan is the annual release of IP. FF is released fairly routinely and games have received different versions or DLC but nothing like the Western release schedules we have seen.
I think that is a hugely important factor in what makes Japanese games feel more polished or finished but also makes it feel like there aren't as many released as there was in the past.
It is hard for Japanese games to remain relevant and at the front of people's minds when in between every release we have had 3 Assassin's Creed games heavily marketed at us.

[Deleted User]

The controls are dreadful.

Are you holding the controller the right way up? You have a lot of control issues.

Tempy

Nintendo are always in a Catch 22 situation with their big IP too. You can't release a Mario game every year and have them vaguely as inventive as they are, but people always want them as soon as the console drops... yet if that was the case what would you have coming out for the next few years? I think they've done kinda better with the release schedule of the WiiU, but it's still gone through sparse patches, though the titles this year make my wallet itchy - honestly can't say that about another next gen console, though having a PC takes the teeth out of them for a while.

[Deleted User]

I like how Nintendo now have 2 versions of Mario games (not that NSMB does it for me), very clever way around that exact problem.
My only issue with Nintendo's development cycle is they don't do enough of the ones I love, but that is of course preference.

[Deleted User]

Gonzo wrote:

Cmon cretins, this thread is now abt whether oxno am raceist

No you are misogynist remember.

Fucksake, keep up.

fullspectrum

Not in my opinion and I'm chill, bro. But I do agree with the bolded which is in line with my initial complaint.

davyK wrote:

I don't use the J word - it is a bit of a throwback to less enlightened times..

nick_md

There was huge drama at one place I worked where 'JAP' was used on a doc instead of 'JP', although the person responsible was actually Japanese. Any road, several people were offended and not happy at all.

I hate the word 'Brit' but people still use that. Just sounds so curt and harsh. Then again, as others allude to, the main reason Jap isn't really do-able these days is 'cause we spent a number of years dehumanising and killing them, using 'Japs' as the defining term at the time.

[Deleted User]

TBF at first iI thought ozno had the wrong thread and was banging on about massive areola again.

fullspectrum

Both shortened words are slurs, Japanese people find them offensive. It's better to avoid them even in jest but yes I agree there was no malice in it here.

Derail attempt 2

Check this awesome Windwaker style building thing.

hylian_elf

Awesome pic!!!

Bollockoff

monkey wrote:

Woah now.

Brooks

Gonzo wrote:

The nips can't cut it no mo'

This is was all that needed to be typed.

Brooks

I fucking live here and it's just blatant how narrow their pop culture has become. Though I think this is mostly because they were pretty late to the party re: the Web, which is where it all happens now. And then there's the language thing, which means they can't really participate so well in the major places of heat i.e. US/Europe.

Don't get me wrong the general levels of consumer choice, safety, convenience and pleasing visual clutter are gonna keep me here for as long as it goes, but they're not really doing anything tremendously novel here anymore. It's a discussion to have whether anywhere in the developed world still is, but you don't come here for the latest in club music innovation or world-class drama or whatever, let's put it that way.

Everyone know what anime is now, and they also know it's mostly terrible and the domain of foul internet people with zero class; everyone can go buy pish sushi at the Coop; they missed the boat on the smartphone consumer tech jump and are now scrabbling to catch up to the West Coast appsappsapps commercial racket. I could go on.

Food's still great though.

stonechalice

Liveinadive wrote:

The controls are dreadful.

Are you holding the controller the right way up? You have a lot of control issues.

GTA controls have always been poo.

dynamiteReady

Brooks wrote:

I fucking live here and it's just blatant how narrow their pop culture has become. Though I think this is mostly because they were pretty late to the party re: the Web, which is where it all happens now. And then there's the language thing, which means they can't really participate so well in the major places of heat i.e. US/Europe.

Fair point.

Japanese culture probably only appears to be exotic over here, because fuck...
It's one of the few cultures that the brits (racial slur? - Just kidding, Nick - :}) haven't assimilated...

But lets be honest... Much like the Germans, their attention to detail is incredible.

fullspectrum wrote:

Derail attempt 2...

I was rather happy with the first attempt...

ITT, underrated rap anthems... Yeah?...

Yeah?

fullspectrum

First one was indeed banging. Will check that later. Love his raspy flow.

Brooks

I dispute the idea that J-culture is actually exotic at all in 2014.

The energy in this part of the world is probably elsewhere - SK, mainland China, Malaysia and Thailand. Places with shit to prove.

dynamiteReady

That whole album is awesome.

fullspectrum

Would fit to be played in the background of an MM for sure.

dynamiteReady

Brooks wrote:

I dispute the idea that J-culture is actually exotic at all in 2014.

Nah... It still is. Anime/Manga subculture is still turfing up plenty of shit to shame the West...
I mean, look at Pacific Rim for a small, but rather clear illustration.

I know it's not much of a platform for a weighty argument, but it's still a big influence.

Brooks

Only service norm that really pisses me off here, as someone who does a lot of personal retail jaunts, is being bugged when browsing in clobber stores. No sweetheart, I don't need to try it on, yes I'm aware the products were locally made, yes I'm sure you have any size I need. Christ.

1st world problems etc. My local mates confirm it's not even a race thing, it happens to them too and they despise it.

dynamiteReady

fullspectrum wrote:

Would fit to be played in the background of an MM for sure.

Album cover makes me laugh though...

It looks like sergeant Murtaugh's prom night arrest mugshot... : P

dynamiteReady

Brooks wrote:

Only service norm that really pisses me off here, as someone who does a lot of personal retail jaunts, is being bugged when browsing in clobber stores. No sweetheart, I don't need to try it on, yes I'm aware the products were locally made, yes I'm sure you have any size I need. Christ. 1st world problems etc.

Ah... But then you get that in London too, when you shop at a certain price range (ain't that right, Elf? - :})...

That's actually a British cultural export...

Howdy, Stranger!

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