Look at it, who is gonna clean that netcode up?
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I've been fiddling around with netcode in recent times, and - in my totally amateur-hour experience - most devs are coming at it from the wrong direction. Lots of games' peer-to-peer implementations have fairly strict limits on upload consistency, which is relatively effective against lag-switchers. But you'll never stop a switcher running up to a door, lagging, and then unlagging less than a second later, having entered the room unseen, started firing, and then unlagged, thrusting forth a barrage of bullets that register in real-time.
If you make your code stricter on upload drops, you'll disconnect thousands of genuine players. The answer is a GGPO-style middleware for multiple machines. GGPO works because it only bridges two machines, so it can afford the overheads to track their mutual synchronicity, rolling back whenever it's necessary. To do this for multiple - let's say 16 - players, you'd need to send packets on an interval timer (I'd begin my testing with a two-second timer), and these packets would fire selectively through the network, checking each machine's current latency condition against every others', dynamically raising and lowering inter-network pings to target uniformity. The fastest machine would naturally remain at (or be reset to) 0 ms.
This is possible. The main problem concerns mass overheads. Within a high-level programming language, each modified packet constitutes a new class. The theory's ostensibly solid. If someone could write this in a low-level language as middleware, they'd make a fortune. -
Alternatively, do what most PC games do and display ping times in region-lockable searches.
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monkey wrote:
Yeah but it doesn't seem like anyone is going to grant these powers without enough agitation. You should be able to get refunds on products that don't work regardless of how you bought them. I know its slightly different but I'm surprised by how easily people were willing to give up the power to trade in a game they don't like.Liveinadive wrote:Consumers could change the scenario by not buying but that shouldn't be necessary as we should be able to claim refunds, which would have the same effect.
Cant say I fully agree with the idea that you can return a game just because you don't like it. I mean if the game doesn't work, fair enough. Although I wonder what classifies the failure to work. BF4 seems obvious from what I've read but could it (legally) include games which are a bit glitchy but still playable? Is there a percentage of failure rate for online connection that can be classified as fail or pass because it usually seems with law that there needs to be a cut-off point.
From a personal point of view, I have no problem with DLC, disc or not feels irrelevant, and I agree with many here who basically are following the obvious rule of caveat emptor. I rarely jump straight on board to any game anymore (to be fair that's not strictly through choice) but I do tend to research any purchase, game related or not, that goes over an impulse buy.
What would worry me though is the effect this has on the industry as a whole and how it is perceived. I often wonder that while the publishers are trying to gouge out the die-hards, are they missing the benefit of a crystal clear purchase point for those who cant be arsed to flick through reviews on metacritic. And in regards to DLC, will this get to the point of genuinely great features being behind paywalls to the detriment of the game itself. It could mean the more original ideas for a game get lost as they need to be purchased by the masses to make an impact but because they are a little different not enough people take a gamble.
The problem of the unfinished game is another issue in itself and could be as damaging. Not so much as in people feeling ripped off (although there is that) but as much in people just not being bothered anymore. We are in a very "now" lifestyle, for better or worse and the idea of getting a shiny new console only to have to spend more time setting it up than a tablet or pc seems ridiculous. And yet that's where we seem to be, whether its Sony, Microsoft or even Nintendo.SFV - reddave360 -
I am not sure why that all came out as a quote. Insert sad face.SFV - reddave360
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Don't think anyone said return games just cause you don't like 'em, it's been pretty clearly about games that don't work. The problem seems to be the difference in definition of 'doesn't work' between the games companies and the consumers!
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RedDave2 wrote:I am not sure why that all came out as a quote. ლ(｀⌒´ლ)
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Outlaw wrote:Don't think anyone said return games just cause you don't like 'em, it's been pretty clearly about games that don't work. The problem seems to be the difference in definition of 'doesn't work' between the games companies and the consumers!
I thought monkey was referring to the old electronic boutique returns policy - think it was ten days, no questions asked.
SFV - reddave360 -
No I was on about people downloading games rather than buying a physical copy and trading it in when they've had enough
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I think it is pretty easy to avoid that scenario again.
MCC not working is major news, think it even hit the BBC.
Same with Ass Creed.
If someone rocks up with a game that no one else is reporting issues with odds are it is their hardware or the disc. In which case all shops should have a disc swap policy. After all we are paying for the data not the physical disc, right MS, right Sony? -
Nice idea 'scape."Better than a tech demo. But mostly a tech demo for now. Exactly what we expected, crashes less and less. No multiplayer."
- BnB NMS review, PS4, PC -
I'm not sure what GGPO does, but that's very similar to the kind of stuff we do where I work (networking shizzle, but for routers / telephone / cloudy stuff). Think I need a diagram to fully get what you mean. Happy to try to crack out a C version... PM if you might be interested... -
(Having said that, lazy gunn keeps asking for networking stuff, which I routinely fail to deliver cos work's too busy - so no guarantees nor nuffing!)
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How transferable is netcode from one game to the next and one operating system to the next?
I ask as it seems to be something that doesn't appear to be improving and at the same time isn't consitantly better /worse on each console or release.
Is there not a third party netcode tool that could be made like there are things like unreal engine or Havok? -
If it's in C, then it's not so bad- issues might be drivers or bespoke libraries, apis etc.
Netcode is well hard, optimised that is.
Folks have been trying all kinds of optimisations from separating non-sensitive data from data that needs to be encrypted in order to umph performance to simply learning to write more robust code, working in pairs and reuse of proven code."Better than a tech demo. But mostly a tech demo for now. Exactly what we expected, crashes less and less. No multiplayer."
- BnB NMS review, PS4, PC -
Being thrust into ptp games with folks in faraway places who get a lag advantage is a pet peeve of mine atm, to the point where I'm seriously considering quiting competitive online MP until devs can find a way to make it a fair experience, at least most of the time.
Region locking should be a tickable option for all online games imo. I don't mind waiting 5-10 mins if it means I get to play a quality match against people in my region i.e. western Europe, rather than a laggy one against Yanks & worst case scenario flamin' Aussies or Japanese peeps. -
C might be able to do it. Python isn't fast enough for multiple players.
We've been saying that for years, Indy. Perhaps, in the event, we would mind waiting for five-or-more minutes to find a match, but it's a choice that we should always have. Uncharted 3's matchmaking is hideous, because it cycles through Europe, Earth and the Solar System, so you have to keep on resetting it if you want a reasonable match.
Fighting games increasingly get this right by offering a minimum-of-five-bars approach. Set that to 4+, and away you go. (It's far from infallible, but hey - I'll take it.) -
Codemen... is there a way to view .lib files without Visual or owt?
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Python by definition is a massive overhead.
I don't buy to play MP, I never buy a game for it but I've partook in Halols past, away from youse- so on the MCC note I'd be disappointed too however due to the early years of gamespy, CS beta and "one points" through to today even with TFC, still nothing comes close to the kinda logistics that don't strong arm you into lobbies endlessly waiting to hear chatter that's the epitome of #GG today. [protecttheneck]
As for DLC on disc, sure it's there, same as digital distrib. my only issue with it is if I haven't paid for it don't install it and waste my space. Ask me for the disc again, oh wait the disc I need to play it anyway or just download it when I pay for it if I didn't buy the disc in the first place.
C, would be more flexible, indeed might.
edit: later post, you want to what- (I've no idea) *goes the kitchen and scrambles eggs* goodnight."Better than a tech demo. But mostly a tech demo for now. Exactly what we expected, crashes less and less. No multiplayer."
- BnB NMS review, PS4, PC -
Wouldn't wait 5 seconds for an UC3 match Escape, Such a messy convoluted abortion, following the direct & simple loveliness of UC2. Mofos best recognise re: UC4.
Plus - it's indicative of the sad state of affairs that I'd say this - I'd definitely wait a bit for a better quality online game if I had to, no probs. Could read/mess with phone/whatevs, any number of ways to pass the time while waiting. -
It's all right, B: it looks like Notepad++ has support for .lib files, instead of just .h header files like Notepad.
EvilRedEye used to mess with his Vita in-between matches when we played The Last of Us. I'd prefer to wait most of the time. -
Publishers seem to be getting the message now at least - EA have delayed Hardline into the new year after a poorly received beta and the way Halo MCC has tumbled down the charts has to be setting off alarm bells at MS.
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Psn has been down yesterday and my issue was not being able to play downloaded games at all.
That's right, games I've paid for, not working because psn isn't. These aren't even mp games like destiny either.
Wtf Sony. Sort yourself out otherwise its back to the ps3
Sometimes here. Sometimes Lurk. Occasionally writes a bad opinion then deletes it before posting.. -
Did you try unticking the 'connect to the internet' option in Network section of settings?
Fixed the problem for me when games were hanging looking for cloud saves and whatnot. Might have sorted it?GT: isanbard PSN: DAQster DS-FC: 0361-6861-4525 AC: Bumdirt -
You are a star. Seems to fix it.
Thanks for your help the other night .
We'll always have Venus..Sometimes here. Sometimes Lurk. Occasionally writes a bad opinion then deletes it before posting.. -
Destiny in PvP last night and a whuppin' on the Halo 5 beta with some dubious kill cams has prompted me to check my connection.
Here's a speed test from my phone over WiFi:
Here's the one through the Xbone, wired:
So I lose half of my speed through WiFi, no big deal, but check the latency out. I'm assuming that's because I'm pinging the good old US of fucking A as opposed to a server near me, but it's still way too high isn't it?
The bizarre thing is my connection always shows up as great in Destiny or whatever but it can't be if I'm pinging into the hundreds. What can I do to fix this?
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Paul the sparky wrote:but it's still way too high isn't it?
False negative. In real-world conditions, that would be a favourable connection to US players. But it's not a static measurement, and as such, pretty meaningless. Most games have incredibly lax packet-handling rules, because the alternative would see thousands of players routinely disconnected.
Run what you brung. Poor connections fluctuate wildly, dropping packets all over the shop. I've the ability to test each game for its maximum upload disconnection in ms, and The Last of Us caters for half-second-plus drops before it freezes your character. Plenty of time to hit a lag switch, enter a room unseen, unlag (bullets register immediately), and jump someone following the teleport.
One option that I'd love to see in the future is a strict mode for those with well-behaved fibre. -
Fuck me.
They can't even get online Tetris right now.
Hardcore Tetris is a very exacting game - and the experts would be very demanding re frame rates etc. But come on - Tetris on a PS4.
Given this version looks as boring as anything I'm guessing that's the intended audience. But this could kill it off in that community before it even gets started.
http://www.playstationlifestyle.net/2014/12/22/ubisoft-aware-of-tetris-ultimate-ps4-issues-suggests-playing-offline-to-fix-frame-rate-issues/
Ultimate my arse. Tetris Party on Wii seemed to manage a decent online game.Holding the wrong end of the stick since 2009.
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