Retro Club - 8 & 16-bit puzzlers - The Bear and Badger

mk64

Brooks wrote:

It's really almost perfect. Undermined a little by the goofy Screw Attack flying, the first proper boss is easily cracked and I'm still bugged by the narrative incoherence of the handily stashed powerups and ammo/health expansions, but it does most other things tremendously well, both for its era and today. It should've been an industrial supertemplate and hasn't been and that sucks a fuck. "Mute, armed explorer of deadly and unknowable world" is what videogames are kinda for, especially solo.

Isn't shadow complex a good stab at it?

Brooks

Ehhh not really. Too much SotN* worthless numberwang up it, the sequence breaks were largely prescribed, physics weren't as interesting, scenario was one of hollow bombast...

There's more to doing the format well than simply having to do a bit of backtracking and finding new toys. To be fair, even Metroid Prime kind of fucked up in places, and Retro only went downhill from there.

*Really, the advance of the Metroidvania term is fudgey and unfortunate. It did ultimately help create a space for things like Dark Souls, but I will always prefer a leaner show.

mk64

isn't super metroid a bit samey then?

I like the variety you get in SC.

Brooks

I've never found it samey. Areas feel distinct enough to actually be able to play without the mapping tool.

hylian_elf

Nintendo need to collaborate with From Software on it, not Team fucking Ninja.

hylian_elf

Brooks wrote:

...and I'm still bugged by the narrative incoherence of the handily stashed powerups and ammo/health expansions...

I'm not usually one to complain about this kinda thing, but it has increasingly started bugging me over the years. To the extent that I'm not enjoying Bioshock Infinite as much as I would like to, because of all the weapons, ammo, and coins found conveniently lying around. And those audio diaries. Sheesh. How does all that happen?! Sheesh.

mistercrayon

Oh its kind of short soghte to rail against this stuff. You'd be forever lambasting Mario for having castles that have gaps that are jumpable or don't just have a ficking great wall in the middle. Or you rail against the contrivance that is a continue game (bioshock infinite and perhaps the system shocks getting some narrative sense out of these game devices).

all game worlds are a contrivance about mechanics.

Brooks

Except when they're not.

Brooks

I mean it's entirely possible to write context for videogame bullshit that makes it rather less bullshit. It's been done several times.

JonB

I always had it that Samus's suit was made of the same technology that the ancient civilisation on the planet used, so that's why it's all compatible. But I may have just made that up to fill in the gaps - can't recall if it was actually part of the back story.

Generally, the impact of plotholes varies - greater works of fiction than Metroid have gotten away with worse, because there's more to them than the story itself.

hylian_elf

It all depends really. If the whole game is completely bonkers and nothing realistic or immersive about it, like Mario, it can get away with any amount of suspension of disbelief. But the likes of Bioshock, whilst works of science fiction, have a lot about them that is semi-believable and are set in and have environments and narratives that you are almost required to lose/immerse yourself in to enjoy a lot more. Games like that don't get away with stupid contrivances as well as the bonkers games.

Brooks

Bonkersism is well codified at this point, so it's always an option. Witness Saints Row; perhaps Volition are the most honest studio in the AAA space.

davyK

mistercrayon wrote:

Oh its kind of short soghte to rail against this stuff. You'd be forever lambasting Mario for having castles that have gaps that are jumpable or don't just have a ficking great wall in the middle. Or you rail against the contrivance that is a continue game (bioshock infinite and perhaps the system shocks getting some narrative sense out of these game devices).

all game worlds are a contrivance about mechanics.

When sounds about Mario and Sonic appearing in the same game started to abound I envisioned a game whereby the tubby one could have scouted out a level, clearing the way and placing powerups and springs for a lightening-fast plough through the level by Sonic. All prep and subsequent charge all done in an increasingly tight time limit (to beat a rising tide or encroaching tidal wave for example) - a nice blend of puzzling and platforming skills that I still think could be nice. To hell with the story - build a great toy box and enjoy.

mistercrayon

Brooks wrote:

I mean it's entirely possible to write context for videogame bullshit that makes it rather less bullshit. It's been done several times.

metroid sort of does this, because the planet is the homeworld of samus aran suit (how this squares with a pillaging of the same powers in metroid 1 is hard to fathom).

I think its possible to call nonsnse on any layout of a game because it has to work around the game mechanics. We could have explanations on this (why no ladders in sonic?) buy to explain everything seems to ask for too much for not much gain.

davyK

Overall I find the obsession with "realism" laughably at odds with game mechanics that nurse the modern gamer along.

Once your graphics "grow up" to look real it does jolt a tad with gameplay - I mean - you get killed and you just respawn and pick up weapons that are just lying about?

What is the level of pseudo-realism that FPS peeps in particular enjoy? Especially those graphics tarts who constantly upgrade their gaming PC? To what end if the gameplay is still stiltingly false? Is it the pretty pictures or the gore? Immersion can't be the case with people being brought back to life without even having the decency to wait 3 days - can it?

Moot_Geeza

This is 30p on the Wii U VC from Wednesday I believe, which is how I'll be playing it. I'll be using a guide, or at least checking one when I get lost. Apart from Dust: An Elysian Tale and the first hour of Shadow Complex (which I purposefully put on the back burner out of respect for this game), I've never played a 2D Metroidvania type title. Along with the upcoming Castlevania IV this is the most I've looked forward to any game in this thread.

Dark Soldier

This guide:

http://www.gamefaqs.com/snes/588741-super-metroid/faqs/39375

Is fantastic, btw.

davyK

There are 2 places I can think of where the guide will come in extremely useful.....actually 3 - there's one of the bosses that can be dealt with in a rather clever way.

Shinji

Sunk an hour and a half into SM this evening.

It is a glorious game, although I'm finding it hard not falling back on a lot of muscle memory. My thumbs seem to find the hidden areas before I've even thought about it.

That soundtrack is immense. Still sounds foreign and oppressive, it's timeless.

hylian_elf

davyK wrote:

There are 2 places I can think of where the guide will come in extremely useful.....actually 3 - there's one of the bosses that can be dealt with in a rather clever way.

BBQPWN??

davyK

If I pick you up right (I'm old remember) - yeah.

Dark Soldier

hylian_elf wrote:

davyK wrote:

There are 2 places I can think of where the guide will come in extremely useful.....actually 3 - there's one of the bosses that can be dealt with in a rather clever way.

BBQPWN??

Yes, yes indeed. They way I do it every time. There's also a couple of upgrades hidden in twatty areas.

dynamiteReady

I haven't 'played through' Super Metroid yet... though I did start a save not long ago after getting deep into Metroid Prime, which I though was an amazing game.

Now putting sentimentality aside, which game would you rate higher? Super or Prime, and why?

Dark Soldier

Super, just. First Metroid memory, the fact the world is nigh on perfect, the music (albeit its superb in Prime). Its hard to split for me, but there's just something about SM that beats MP. I'll be starting a new SM save tomorrow so will join in, chaps.

JonB

Super is a much better game. Prime really goes downhill in the last third or so.

Dark Soldier

Prime never goes downhill. I must've completed that about ten times.

Tempy

I'm not sure anyone can write a compelling defence for the relic hunt bit.

Dark Soldier

It didn't really bother me, Metroid has always been full of backtracking (including some insane amounts if gunning for 100% on Super). Its always been part of it.

Tempy

That's not a compelling defence.

Dark Soldier

I didn't say it was.

Howdy, Stranger!

Categories